0:00 Intro
0:30 Why is it pain and agony that sets us off on the spiritual path rather than joy or success?
7:03 Why do we experience discomfort when in the company of people who are not spiritually inclined?
12:16 Is kindness and consideration to others the core criteria of spirituality?
14:06 Why is difficult for us to practise what we preach?
17:44 Does the brain exclusively drive the mind?
23:18 Without a brain can there be consciousness?
33:11 Outside meditation how can we keep our mind silent when we are going about our duties?
36:00 Other than meditation, how can we master the mind?

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji – online Q and A No. 129
Spiritual Transformation, Mind and Brain
Recorded: 19 January 2023 with Malaysian participants

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Babaji, we will be continuing from the question-and-answer sessions that we had during our retreat. So, the next topic that we are looking at is, “Babaji’s YouTube video on spiritual transformation.”. And the question is, Babaji mentioned that although it is not necessary in spiritual transformation, some pain or agony can set us on the spiritual path. This appears true for many of us. The question is, Babaji, why pain, agony and setbacks in life and not joy, success or comfort that sets us off on our spiritual journey?

Babaji Maharaj:   This is very true what has been told and written. One thing is that everybody is looking for peace, happiness, enjoyment in this world, and for whatever purpose they may know or they may not know, but they are looking for peace and happiness. Okay, well, they are happy sometimes means if some people might have a tendency when they are happy they would like to worship God much better way, more happily, enthusiastically. But often we get to see many, many people, when they are happy in this world they don’t get time to remember God at all. That’s because they imagine that their happiness is coming from this world because if they are successful, if they think they are more intelligent, more shrewd people, they can handle the society, handle the world, and all such etcetera, etcetera. Such people when they are very happy, when they are successful every moment in their life, as long as they don’t face any stiff challenge with a head-on collision, they don’t get beaten up in life, they don’t bother about spirituality. Many a youth we have a come across – they tell, “We are already okay in our mind, we don’t think we need any meditation, we are getting good marks in examinations, we are passing through, we are successful in our lives, we are earning very well, lot of money and with money we can buy anything.” That type of answers also we have heard. So, generally when a person faces unhappiness, failures or some troubles, some illness, some disappointing such times, then they look for some solution. Is there somebody who can protect me? Is there somebody who can grace upon me?  Then they try to remember, “Oh God, are you there? Can you protect me?” If you can protect, then I will understand that you are there, that you are really a God. Such people in a lower-level category they start thinking like that one. So that’s why it happens like that one.

When they feel totally disappointed in the world, then some people realize the futility of the impermanence of this world that we try to look for our happiness and enjoyment in this world and that seems so elusive at all times. At the age of seventy, eighty, people look back; I have come across, we know so many who have always considered themselves great intellectuals and even behaved in a rational way, never bothered about anything, about God and made fun about others also who have believed in God, who are on the spiritual path. So, like that, they have had been. So, even when unhappiness comes, for a while they would like to remember God, they would like to visit some pilgrimage. Once that calamity is over, then they again forget about God, they don’t bother. But if the wound is very deep, then they go to Divine. When they really realize this world’s impermanence, and like death or an illness, old age, all these things happening, then they go towards spirituality to find an answer. “What is it? Finally, what is it that can give us a solution? How to overcome this – we need happiness. Who can give this happiness? If nothing of this world can give us happiness, it has given only depression, then who is it that can give?” Thus, they try to go towards spirituality.

   For some people, other people it can be different reasons also. Like for example to tell, in my childhood, there was no agony, no such pain, or no such troublesome thing. Yet, just the thought of death reminded us of the impermanence of this world and this body will go away. We thought, “We must find an answer. How are we going to exist or we are not going to exist at all? This is all that we have come with this body, and then we are going to go away, or are we going to exist in some other form? Is it going to be peaceful, happy?” Peace and tranquility we wanted. So, that drove us towards spirituality. Like this. Though generally it is pain and unhappiness in this world which drives people towards spirituality, occasionally there can be one or two other reasons also. Some great people like Ramana Maharishi, Adi Shankara, all these people. Adi Shankaracharya, once when He was very young in his village, He got to see a drama on Nachiketa of Katopanishad‘s story that you all have heard. When He saw that drama, He became totally withdrawn, He started seriously thinking about the impermanence of life, this world, death, all these things. So, that made Him to go deeply into spirituality and He realized, became realized soul and He gave such a beautiful truth of science of spirituality and all such things. So, that is how these things happen. When the need arises, then people go towards that.

Question:   Thank You Babaji. The next question. When we are in the company of people who are not spiritually inclined, we tend to keep slightly away from them. Why do we experience this discomfort, Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   They can be several reasons. If people are not on the spiritual path, seldom they will be able to respect others who are on the path or at least appreciate or if not appreciate, at least understanding them is a rare case. Often these people who are not on the spiritual path, so they make fun and tease, try to belittle those people who are on the spiritual path because they won’t try to know what it is scientifically, in truth of existence. They will just say, “O, some unknown God he is trying to worship, he is trying to be very religious. O, he is so scared. O, he says, “God is everywhere.”“ My friends used to tease me when I was in school. “You tell that God is everywhere. This is the hospital. You do pranams.” God has given me some wisdom. I said, “If God is in me and in this hospital, who has to do pranams to whom? It is the God everywhere. So, God’s play – He has become hospital and He has become Srinivas Dikshit” – then they would shut up their mouth. One has to be witty in answering such people. So, then those people who are on the spiritual path, they might feel discomfort. But if they know what is the answer, if they have that faith, self-confidence that on the path that they are is the right thing for them. Like we always, we never felt discomfort even if our friends were not on the spiritual path, when they teased also. “So, okay, you don’t like, you don’t like. I like it, I like it. You like to have meat and you eat meat. I don’t like meat and I don’t eat, that’s all. Then the argument stops”. As long as you try to give some other answer, “O we are on the religious path because we were taught to worship God. Otherwise, this happens, that happens.” No need of all such things. My mother taught me, “Just tell “I love this, I like to go on this path and I go. I don’t like to be away from spiritual path.”” That’s all. “You don’t like, you don’t come. It’s no problem for me. Still, we can be friends”. So, such people who can answer like this, won’t feel this discomfort. Those people who are really not confident of what they are doing. Like this, what happens? Many people come to our Mission. Some people may remain dedicated. Nobody can brainwash them against Babaji or against the spiritual leader or against the Mission, anything, against the Mission also. So, nobody can brainwash them. Those people who are not confident, who don’t have the real faith, their faith gets shaken very quickly if somebody tries to brainwash. “O, this leader is not good. Babaji is also not genuine. These teachings are all not genuine. This mission is very bad. I am going away. You also come with me.” There are some people. When they want to go away, they will try to brainwash and influence others also to come out of the Mission. They cannot simply go away on their own. So, these things happen.

   So, then, what can sustain one person? If you have the confidence in yourself. If you have that total faith, and if you have come to know what the teachings are, understood the teachings. And then you think that you are on the right path in doing sadhana. No Brahma, no power of the earth can brainwash you ever. So, that’s what we all learned. About Swamiji also many people used to talk, talk to us. “O, this Swamiji is not real. He is very bad. He behaved very badly with me.” “So, if we had behaved very badly, that’s very good. He behaves very badly with me also, but I am happy. He is putting me on the right track. I was also not proper. So, He is teaching me the right path. So, that might appear to you as Swamiji behaving very badly. But Swamiji actually is behaving very rightly with me”, like that I used to tell. “If you don’t like man, you go. Leave me in peace. I want to be here. Whatever it is, no problem”. So, like that, if one has that faith and confidence, then nobody can disturb, nobody can make you discomfort also. If they are going, they are going, that is all their prarabhda. I am going to be here. This is my Guru. This is my Mission. This is my work. So, you will remain dedicated. So, these things are very necessary. Those who are not confident of what they are doing, only they feel discomfort. This is my opinion.

Question:   Thank You Babaji. The next question. Is kindness and consideration towards others a core criteria in spirituality?

Babaji Maharaj:   Definitely, as you see, if you are practicing spiritual exercises like in all the satsangs you practice meditation, you participate in agnihotra, and you participate in bhajan sankirtans, you participate in seva; while doing, your mentality is very important. Suppose you are doing the seva. If you go there just to dust and enjoy the glamorous things to be with friends and enjoy the time pass with humor, so you won’t gain anything spiritually, but if you are going there to serve with your Guru in the mind, “Let the service reach the lotus feet of my Guru.” Like this, if you are practicing the exercises, when you are participating in agnihotra, in abhishekams, any worship, then if you are really devoted you can visualize the Divine in that, and you find that one, then you will get spiritually elevated also. Then automatically in your nature, consideration to each other, compassion all these things come as a nature of your nature, what it is to be. So, it need not have to be practiced separately that because you are on the spiritual path you have to practice compassion and all such things. It doesn’t arise in my opinion. If you are really on the spiritual path, automatically you will have compassion, you will have consideration to others.

Question:   Thank You Babaji. The next question – Babaji, why is it difficult for us to practice what we preach? We know and understand many motivational quotes, and we share them with those we think may find it useful, but we ourselves find it difficult to apply in our lives.

Babaji Maharaj:   Generally, we human beings set one set of justice for ourselves, another set of justice for others. It is like the old joke. Panditji Gurukal was giving big lecture of donating things is very necessary. You have to offer your money, your wealth and everything. Unfortunately, for the Gurukal, his wife was also sitting there and listening. So, she went home, started donating all the wealth. He comes and he was terrified. “What are you doing this?” “So, you only told that we need to donate and we need to contribute to poor and needy. That’s what I am doing.” “O, idiot, I was telling for all other people so that they can donate the money to us. It is not for us.” So, that is the general human nature. So, “Not for me, all principles for you, you follow the principle, I teach and don’t expect the same things to me and don’t point out if I am wrong”. So, that should not be the thing. We must practice what we preach actually. Generally, people have a tendency – they tell “No, we should have the patriotism, our children should not go outside the country to study.” So, they talk to all others, but their own children will be studying in other countries peacefully, happily. So, this type of things for human beings has become very normal, though unfortunate. But people, if they are really practicing spirituality, then what they preach also, they will be behaving in the same way. They will be practicing in the same way. If I ask you to forgive people, I should be able to forgive 100,000 people, 100,000 times, such injustice to me, much bigger than what you all would have undergone. I should be able to forgive. Then only I can remain as an example; “If Babaji can forgive such a worst, crooked person, so what is difficult for us to forgive? We should be able to forgive easily; what we face are all smaller things in life”. So, that should be a leader or a guru, or a teacher should always be. Behavior is very important. Like Swamiji used to tell for parents also, “Beware parents, don’t simply give lectures to your children and you misbehave. But if you behave properly, then they will learn the same things from you also, because they will be watching you more than listening to your lectures. So, this is very important”, Swamiji used to tell. “Beware, your children will be watching you more than listening to your lectures. So, behave properly yourself. Then your children will also pick up the same good habits.” That’s very necessary. We all learn from our parents because they had such good habits. So, it naturally came to us. So, it’s very essential that what we try to recommend or teach others, we should be behaving in the same way; that is necessary.

Question:   Thank You Babaji. Babaji, the next question is on the topic, “How not to be fooled by the brain?” Babaji has said that when the brain reflects, it is in touch with this universe. It receives messages and it passes on the orders. In that process, it reflects as a thought process or visual effects. So that, the mind catches and it registers in itself such a thing as a fundamental reality, it won’t like to verify. Can we conclude that the brain exclusively drives the mind? The mind could be described as the entire set of the activities of the brain and we are not conscious of most of these activities directed by the brain. Is one’s character, decision making and reasoning also controlled by the brain? If meditation is to silence of the mind, can it also minimize or control the brain’s activities, reflections and chattering?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, always it is important, several things – like if another person comes and defeats us in argument, or by giving blood pressure, by testing our patience anything. If we get defeated, that means we are not strong enough. We have allowed ourselves to be defeated. We are unable to take care of our mental energies. That’s what happens. Here also, we cannot simply blame the brain that the brain is controlling the mind. We have to understand it is the mind which has allowed the brain to control it. The mind has allowed itself to become a victim of the brain’s reflections by not trying to be in control of itself. For that, like we have to be under our control. Then we can control our mind also. Then if somebody is trying to give me blood pressure, I remain unaffected. I don’t get into blood pressure. Then they will get it back. If I get into a blood pressure, that means I am mentally weak. My mind is not strong enough to resist such a thing. Somebody can simply by criticizing me, if they can give me a strong, wrong temper, annoy me and make me scratch my head, “O God, what is this person?” Nothing. We are at peace. We are happy. So here, mind has allowed itself to be a victim by simply believing whatever the brain reflects. Brain is like a computer. It’s an amazing organ. It has enabled us as the mind consciousness to have the consciousness of this world. So, brain, just like a computer robot, it receives the message, it passes on the order. So, in that process, it reflects as a thought process or a visual effect, this happens. So, it simply does its job. It has not asked you, “You have to believe me.” The computer is not telling. And the brain is not telling that “You believe only me.” It’s we who have not ever tried to control our mind, keep ourselves restrained, try to verify facts. A while ago, I was talking, I’m a devotee of the Mission; for the last fifteen years I am there. Somebody comes and tries to brainwash me – “Come on, I am going away from this Mission. The leaders are very bad. Babaji is also not good. Brother Hari also is not good in the Mission. We must give up the Mission. I am going. You come.”  And I get brainwashed quickly. What does that mean? I am so weak. Even after fifteen years of practice and being in the Mission, mentally, I am so weak, such an idiot that I am. Somebody can brainwash me so easily. Do we need somebody to brainwash me after being in the Mission for fifteen years? That is what is happening – mind and brain. I have also told brain should be our servant. We should be the master. Like you have a servant at home and somebody knocks the door. You send the servant, “Go and see who has come.” He goes and after ten, fifteen minutes he comes back. Instead of telling simply who has come, he tells, “O, your friend had come. I didn’t want him to disturb you. I just asked him to go away, come some other day. I drove him away sir.” How do you feel? He is the servant. It is you who should be deciding whether you want to meet that friend or not. Then you should have ordered your servant, “I don’t feel like meeting him. Please request him to come some other day.” It is not the servant who will decide whether you will meet him or not. That wrong thing is happening here. We are simply believing the brain’s reflections and registering in ourselves as if that is the fundamental reality and truth.

Question:   Thank You Babaji. The next question, Babaji. In Viveka Choodamani, Adi Shankara talks, “When your consciousness is not into any type of imagination, in front of you, know that existence as the truth, real truth. So, the brain has no control over the consciousness as the consciousness actually exists independently, Babaji? Without a brain can there be consciousness?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, this is very important – based on my experience and what Swamiji has spoken to me I will answer this question. This question is very, very important. Now we were talking about mind and brain. Mind is you, yourself, your consciousness. This is what it is. The mind can remain independent and use the brain. Well, however I have told, for a yogi to be alive in this body, a little bit of consciousness remains applied to the brain always, to the consciousness applying on the brain so that the brain is alive. Because, along with the blood and oxygen, mind is also the fuel for the brain to be alive. It’s equally important. So, that cannot be totally withdrawn. It is there, but it will not become a victim of the brain anymore. Because of its application, brain will remain ready on standby for you to use it in this world. So, that is what will happen always if you have the control over your mind.

   Now the question is, can consciousness exist without the brain? Here, though it appears that it is in touch with the brain because of the brain, some people, some in the science world believe mind as a by-product of the brain only. In my opinion and experience, if that was the case, we would not have been able to meditate and withdraw the mind independently from the clutches of the brain, would not have been possible. And by controlling the brain, it would have been very easy to control the mind. Things doesn’t happen. If you observe, watch, study, survey, do anything with like drug addicts or alcoholics. Why they feel for some time as very happy – temporarily? When that medicine is on the brain, it suppresses the brain’s reflections. It doesn’t sublimate, it suppresses. So, as long as that medicines or the drugs or anything quality is there on the brain, the brain becomes quiet, almost dead type, going into a deep sleep. When there is nothing to catch of the brain’s reflections, mind temporarily gets detached from the brain. Means, mind becomes unconscious of the surroundings of this world. So, that is when temporarily, those people experience as if they are [gestures], but they experience not a quiet and peace, serene peace. They experience hallucinations – flying, jumping, this, that, all such thing. Along with that, unfortunately, gradually, health of the brain gets spoiled. Those medicines, drugs, alcohols spoil the health of the brain. So, slowly after some time, when you become an addict, you can neither die nor live peacefully, happily, you cannot be a normal person in the world. And you don’t know without that you cannot live also. So, like that, you will be so miserable. The same thing which you are imagining, that drug or anything that would give happiness will give such an unhappiness, such hallucinations probably. That’s why all these intoxicating things must be avoided at all times, never take anything. Even in spirituality, like the thing of raw opium, which is known as ‘bhang‘ in some places of Northern India language, some monks have become addicted to this thing. Because its quality is when you take, you can quietly sit by closing the eyes. When their mind becomes quiet temporarily, because it has suppressed the brain, they start hallucinations as if they have gone into samadhi; several hours they can be sitting. But actually, no samadhi comes to them. Mind becomes very bad and corrupted all the time because the brain also slowly starts becoming corrupted. When that medicinal quality jumps out, the reflections of the brain also jump up and it catches hold the mind, mind again loses. So, it doesn’t achieve anything spiritually. Now meditate. When you meditate, you maintain the health of the brain. You will not be disturbing the brain of its health, its capabilities. Keeping that intact, you will gently and slowly learn to withdraw by becoming quiet. Means you are not recognizing any reflections of the brain, and mentally you are becoming quiet and quiet; you practice like that one. That is when mind regains the form of pure consciousness.

   So, thus this is possible in this world when you are in the body, as the consciousness you will realize that you are that consciousness. That’s what the beginning of this question, what Adi Shankara has said. “In the silence of your mind, when your consciousness is not into any type of imagination, when you come face to face with the truth, know that existence as the truth.” Because mind or consciousness, as long as it is into imaginations, it has become mind. So, when it is into imaginations, its attention is drawn to its own imagination so strongly; the imagination can be so strong. That is what also is known as maya, illusion. A mind creates such illusion of thoughts into itself, and its attention is drawn to that maya, and it’s unable to remember what it is. That’s what is ‘know yourself by meditating.’ When you meditate, when it regains the pure consciousness, thoughts all go away, visions all go away, the silence, the consciousness of existence, your attention goes on to the Self. That is the only truth I keep talking. Remember? In all my talks, that consciousness of existence is the only reality. It is not a thought. It is not an imagined substance, because you cannot make it disappear in meditation. It will always be there. You can make all thoughts and visions disappear, but not this consciousness of existence. Thus, independently, it can remain.

   Now, a final truth I will tell you all. This mind, consciousness, as long as it is a mind with imaginations, which has become the acquired habits of the mind, and it is spinning all the time with that attitude, mind. At that time if death happens, brain dies, then this consciousness which is still the mind, intensity of thoughts form – based on that attitude, it assumes next incarnation. So, that means, consciousness, as long as it is spinning into imaginations it cannot remain without any physical body. It can be of any type. We don’t know – animals, any species, humans, anything it could be. It keeps rotating. This is what punarapi jananam, punarapi maranam, life after life, life after life continues. Now, the spiritual sadhana is taught so that you can liberate yourself from the clutches of these imaginations. If that spinning into imagination stops, you become a yogi. You realize yourself, means you settle in your real Self, in the silence. Like a yogi‘s mind is ever-silent one. Then, after some time, a little bit of touch of consciousness into the brain is there, but that consciousness doesn’t get affected by the brain’s reflections. Even if dream comes or anything comes, it won’t get affected. It is totally aware of itself and what the truth is. And also it will give a benefit of doubt, what the brain is telling need not be the truth. It might tell something, “This is a bed.” It may not be the truth. That might be the Divinity. Something like that, example.

   So, now, when this mind has become purified consciousness, when the brain dies, yogi‘s body dies, He won’t have any rebirth because there is no desire, no imagination. It is quiet and in silence. It becomes one with the Divinity. That is how the Supreme Consciousness can exist without any physical body or brain.

Question:   Thank You, Babaji. The next question. The moment you don’t analyze or make any judgment, you are not recognizing the thought at all, then the vision disappears. Babaji, during meditation, there is an effort to silence the mind and not to recognize the chatter and thoughts. But when we are going about doing our duties and responsibilities, how can we keep this practice in place at all times?

Babaji Maharaj:   Important, when you are active in this world, when you are not sitting, closing the eyes trying to meditate, at that time how to keep the mind quiet. You put an effort, that is no problem. You have a desire, no problem. But that desire must not trouble you. It should be simply there as a desire. That desire troubles means it jumps into further thoughts of anxiousness. “Will my desire be fulfilled? If it doesn’t happen, what will happen to me? O, I must have that. What to do? How big a headache? This will happen.” Like that, unnecessary thoughts coming in is the problem. But if you simply leave it to the Divine, accepting the result – “I have put my effort, I have this desire. If it happens, okay, even if it doesn’t happen, my happiness must not depend on the result.” Like that you think and keep quiet. “Let the result reach the lotus feet of my Master, my bhagavan, my Guru, my God. Anything happens is acceptable. Because I am satisfied that I have put my efforts.” I will always remain satisfied when I teach you all. When I answer your question I have done my duty. Whether you will become Self-realized, you will meditate, you will achieve at least peace in this world, at least some awareness of the Self, some awareness of the Divinity, the essence of the spirituality, acceptance is there for me. I will accept you all. Still, I will love you all. But don’t go waste of such a wonderful opportunity in this life that the Divine has made this old man to answer your questions, give you that beautiful knowledge which even 100,000 million billion dollars cannot give you, such gold cannot give you, emperorship cannot give you – this peace, this beautiful knowledge of the Self. That is my advocation and advice. Acceptance can help you to remain quiet in the mind. You won’t be bothering. It’s OK, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t happen, no problem.

Question:   Thank You, Babaji. The last question for today. When the mind is purified and concentrated, you are able to apply the brain in a better way. You won’t allow the brain to fool you, but you will be using the brain. If you allow the brain to use you, then it will fool you. Other than meditation, how else can we master our mind? Please suggest some practices that we need to emulate in all our actions and thoughts, Babaji.

Babaji Maharaj:   Practicing concentration is the essence here. That’s why in Sanatana Dharma also since ancient times, the sages evolved several methods. Like when they thought, it may be difficult for everybody, householders and so on to keep the mind in samadhi, sit down and adopt samadhi, and remain like that. So for that they thought, everybody after their mundane activities and duties, they can take out some time and participate in some other type of exercises, just like agnihotra, great fire sacrifices. So, you concentrate, you pray in your heart to the Divine considering that Agni as the mouth of the Divine. Pray that all your mind’s corrupted things can get purified by the grace of the Divine and make the mind eligible to become one with the Divinity. Like that you pray and participate. You all participate. Such exercises can be wonderful. Bhajan sankirtans are there. Music can be such a wonderful therapy for quietening the mind. When you participate, everybody sincerely participate. Not that two or four or six people are singing with all their efforts. And some others are simply, hush, hush, gossiping, some are sleeping, some are doing something else. They don’t think that it is essential for them to obtain the fruits of such satsang. They need to remain focused on to the singing. Every person must focus their mind on to the singing. Then only it will be fruitful for them. Simply somebody else. In many households nowadays has happened, we invite a Gurukal, ask him to do some chants and we keep gossiping ourselves, cook ourselves and eat well. “O, we have organized a big worship.” The Gurukal is doing his worship, he is chanting the mantra, we don’t even bother. Such exercises will not give fruit. Apply your mind and participate in every such exercise, in singing, in worship, in abhishekams. All these are taught only for this purpose. Also, have acceptance in life after putting efforts. You have desires. You must put an effort – work, don’t give up. But when the result comes, it’s fine. Like this so many exercises, music, things are all there. Remain focused when you are working on a certain thing. Also, simple terminology, keep yourself busy so that mind also remains focused. You don’t have time to be a lazy person. You cannot afford to feel sorry for yourself. You should be so busy. These are some of the things that you need to remember so that you can keep your mind concentrated, purified. So that’s what happens.

Facilitator:   Thank You, Babaji. That was the last question under the satsang topic for today. Your satsang was very, very enlightening for all of us, Babaji. Thank You very much.

End of Questions and Answers

Babaji Maharaj now concludes the session.

   Wonderful. I am so happy that it has been useful. I hope the same with all of you participating. I deeply appreciate your taking out the time, taking interest and trying to understand that you are able to sit into meditation peacefully. You have practiced well. All my best wishes, my love and my blessings to all of you. May the Divine Guru Swamiji Shivabalayogi be with you all to bless you and make you the most fortunate.

End of Session