0:00 Intro
0:16 What was the ‘restlessness’ that Babaji experienced as a child and is it necessary for spiritual transformation?
4:38 How can consideration to others be helpful for spiritual transformation?
12:25 Is it better to get away from people and the world or is it better to stay amongst people so it can serve as a training?
18:25 Outside meditation should we always be judging our own mind to see if we are improving in the way that we behave?
19:56 Is faith and devotion to the Guru, faith and dedication to the spiritual path and devotion to God all the same thing?
21:25 Are we missing out on anything by not practicing other meditation methods?
22:11 When I started on my spiritual journey I was very inspired but as I have aged, the experiences have become flat and regularised. What is the transformation that is happening?
23:10 If peace and pure observation has become a more regular experience, where do we go from there?
24:14 Could Babaji talk about the story of Nachiketa in the Katha Upanishad when he met Lord Yama?

Spiritual Transformation | Thus Spake Babaji – online Q&A, No.101

Recorded on 16 July 2022 with worldwide participants.

What was the ‘restlessness’ that Babaji experienced as a child and is it necessary for spiritual transformation?

This was a personal experience, though it’s very difficult to say whether it is necessary for everybody. But some pain, some agony, something that is missing can induce you strongly towards the path of spirituality. Like the restlessness if we have to talk, even as the very young child also I used to feel restless at the sight of this world. My childhood was very comfortable. Parents, siblings, all loving and caring to each other. Father was a doctor. So, everything was comfortable. However, I felt an unknown pain-type, though it was not a physical pain, like the throat getting stuck, something of that type. As if I have come to a place where I do not belong. As if I am here aimlessly – somewhere I belong to and I do not know where I have to go, what it is. That type of an unknown pain used to be there. As I have already told, the thoughts that used to be common, if there is some button by pressing which I can make the universe disappear. Though this could appear as a funny imagination for anybody, that very thought, that imagination itself gave me a lot of peace. The sight of the world made me a bit restless, what is called the scene, the drishya, the appearance. I was not happy, something. So that was how I experienced, and I always thought there is something else there, which I do not know at that moment. Like also the thoughts used to come, “As the scriptures say we are the Atma, we are the soul, not this body. If at all I am that Atman, why is that I am consciously not aware of that fact? If somebody calls me by name or me, when I think of myself or somebody addresses me, I feel as if this body is that ‘me’. And why is that I am not aware? Everybody must be aware if they are ‘That’ – what are they?” So like that I used to think. So, these all induced me to go towards spirituality and simultaneously as I got introduced to Adi Shankara, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Ramana Maharish’s teachings. These took me towards the truth of existence, “Something else is there definitely. Without that these great sages wouldn’t have been simply sitting for hours together and did tapas – something they achieved”. Like for example, when I used to see Ramana Maharishi’s photo, He always remained with a loincloth, a kaupin, quietly sitting at peace as if he is totally contented. I used to think, “What is it that this man has achieved that has given him so much peace and he looks very contented. Though he has only a loincloth on his body and he doesn’t seem to own anything else”. Like that I used to wonder, “What is it that can give such  contentment?”

How can consideration to others be helpful for spiritual transformation?

 This is the most difficult thing when we look at humanity. Generally, everybody seems to live in this world or operate based on their own temperament. Like showing an anger, whether showing a jealousy or showing a dislike, showing something like that, whether a negative thought or any such thing. I have felt they do not seem to consider about the other. On whomever they are jealous or angry or that type of behavior they are showing, they do not seem to understand what that person… that person might be right, that person might be innocent, that person may not be that negative as we imagine. But yet some people behave with them as if they are very negative people, they don’t like. And also another important thing, since younger days I observed, human beings, suppose if they are angry with somebody else and if they are unable to show that anger on them, then they would show that anger on somebody else.

Just as a matter of interest, I remember having read a novel, ‘Eyes of the Cat’, that is the title of the novel. One small girl, she loses her mother and her father remarries again, she has a stepmother. But stepmother’s eyes are just like the cat’s eyes. She ill-treats the girl, she beats her up, so she develops such a dislike for all the cat’s eyes. She is unable to take cats also, whenever she comes across a cat, she tries to beat them up with stones, with cane, and she goes to school. There also one boy is a slightly cat-eyed boy, like that. So she beats him up just for no reason. She gets so annoyed. So she is psychologically affected as she grows. And finally, a psychiatrist treats her. And the novel is very long, we don’t have to go into the details, but theoretically, the moral of the psychological effects that it can affect the human mind or brain’s reflections, how one person can start misbehaving. Just for no reason. Whereas that boy or the cat is not the reason for her suffering. Her stepmother made her suffer. But she was elder. She couldn’t harm her. Because she didn’t have the power to harm her she goes on harming other creatures which are helpless. So this type of behavior in human beings, general habit in the society. Though in that story she is sent to mental asylum and a psychiatrist treats her, helps her to overcome such effects. And she becomes very violent when she grows up. She is very violent with anybody whomever she thinks has cat eyes. Finally, she recovers.

But I have seen many people in the society behave like that. Their inability to consider, “Oh this is not necessary that we are behaving like this with these people. They are not the reason for my suffering or for my annoyance. So that inability is there in human beings. They are unable to consider, “I should not show the anger that I have on somebody else here”. This is one general psychological thing I have observed. It’s very sad, sometimes. These people may not be completely ill to be recognized to go to the mental asylum. But certainly they need to be subjected to a psychiatrist’s treatment. Human beings behave like that. But if they meditate properly, if people can undertake spiritual exercises, they can overcome these types of temperaments. Instead of operating based on their own temperament, then they will be able to understand others. Suppose there is a small child. A small baby child may misbehave for a while, may use a wrong language. We try to pull the child up. We want to discipline the child. And then we stop showing annoyance. Not that we are going to break the head of the child. That is not the right thing, it’s very wrong. We cannot go on beating. Some parents or some people start beating up the child. Then the child becomes very stubborn, rebellious, and they lose character more. They start behaving very badly like that one. So, these types of things happen in the society. As they grow up, they can become quite evil also. So, if they are not checked as a child. That’s why, there’s another thing. Swamiji used to tell – this is his language. “Parents beware. Your children will be watching you. Don’t simply give lectures to the children and you misbehave. Your own behavior is very important because they will pick up whatever you behave. The same habits they can pick up”. These are some general observations. Not necessarily that is the only right thing. When we get to see, observe the society, world, people, so then they are unable to consider about others. So that is what now, those human beings who are able to consider about others, they are able to forgive. They do not entertain enmity all the time. There is no personality clash. Sometimes we may have to fight for a cause to protect an institution, to protect a country, to protect a larger cause of the world. All these things we may come across. If we are a soldier, it’s our duty, we have to do that one. However, we shall not entertain such enmity, jealousy, or anger towards any particular person. It’s not the personality clash. They are not an enemy of any particular person. If they were behaving badly towards our institution, we would have defended. That right we have, we will exercise. But we don’t entertain ill will against them all the twenty-four hours. We are not going to keep thinking. Then our own minds will become corrupted, casualty, we lose our character, our behavior, our personality, all these things, culture, everything goes. Then the entire society can go into conflicts. That is how this world often keeps going into conflicts when people are unable to consider about each other. These are some of the points which I wanted to point out based on my learning observations.

Is it better to get away from people and the world or is it better to stay amongst people so it can serve as a training?

 Instead of running away, we use such situations to develop patience within us. That patience can enable our minds to recede and become quiet, achieve that peace within. We may not be able to change the world. But we can change ourselves, where we are restless, our minds are disliking the world, or annoyed about the world, feel like banging the entire world – if we have the power, take the earth and bang it on some stone boulder so that it can get into pieces. That is not the right thing, you see. We have to ponder over the reason. Is it something wrong in me or something wrong in this world? What it is? How to? We have right to defend ourselves. While defending, we need to take care that our mind also doesn’t become corrupted. Then we might even misbehave with people. We won’t be able to help anybody. We won’t be able to give any teaching. We will simply talk. We give one justice to others and we are going to misbehave. Everyday we talk of peace and not shout at others, but again when it comes to us, we keep shouting at others just for no reason. Not that. We must practice first patience within ourselves so that our mind is not corrupted. It is purified. It is a pure consciousness. It gets connected to the divinity. Then anybody comes to us for counseling, to learn something, then we can both teach them, also behave in front of them in the society in such a way that they should feel inspired.

That is important. Not that just for two minutes they come and we pretend that we have a lot of patience and once they go away we start shouting. If twenty years they get to see us, all those twenty years we must exercise that patience, that peace within us. We simply try to defend as a soldier our country, our institution. I am just doing my job, that is all. I don’t have any enmity, any jealousy, any dislike, any anger against any personality. That person has misbehaved. It is sad. But not that I am going to keep thinking about him all the twenty-four hours. No need. We don’t have to become corrupted mentally. Whenever the fight comes you fight, once that is over then remain at peace. It is done. So like that, it is not as easy as we are talking. Long time spiritual practice and devotional practice. Like when you do any devotional exercises, worshiping God, you should pour all your feelings, bhava, you love God, you love your master, you imagine your master is all the time in front of you.  Then your behavior will be proper, you will be very careful. Wherever you go, you are unable to forget your master as master is sitting. Then you won’t smoke in front of your master. Though physically he is not there you will smoke only when you think the master is not seeing you. Remember, Kanaka Dasa’s story I told you? So master was teaching them “God is everywhere”. So he wanted to teach other students, he gave one-one banana to all students, “Go and eat where nobody is seeing you”. They all go and come back very quickly within an hour. “We ate banana behind the trees, nobody was watching me”. “I ate banana behind the cave”, all these, like this they all gave different reasons. But Kanaka Dasa came back with the banana. He said, “Wherever I went, I went behind the trees, behind the mountains, in the bushes, here, there, everywhere I went. Wherever I went, Lord Kesava was watching me, Lord Krishna was watching me. I couldn’t escape His eyes. My master, I failed to eat this banana and I am so sorry”. He surrenders. So that vision must be there. That love, that remembrance of the divinity. So, then the mind will not become corrupted.

Long time practice I am talking, right? Meditate. Everyday meditate with the right technique. If after meditation and doing pooja, devotional practices, if the transformation has not occurred, means that person has not meditated properly at all. He used to sit down by closing the eyes, putting the asana, and keep the eyes closed – probably either he was sleeping or he was creating his own world and more and more, but he was not purifying his mind. He was doing abishekams, he was doing aarathis, he was worshipping with flowers, baskets after baskets people pour flowers on divine idols. But if the transformation doesn’t come, it was all done to earn money or some fame or some show, but not out of the real bhava, or love. Ramakrishna used to say, “Those people who cannot cry for God, they are not fit for devotional path”.

Outside meditation should we always be judging our own mind to see if we are improving in the way that we behave?

More than judging, watching the mind so that you are aware if it is talking wrong, chatterbox if it has become. If it is becoming corrupted, apply the brake – “Enough Shaolin, enough” no more corrupted thinkings, enough”, like this. That worldly person, that person is not that worthy that all the twenty-four hours you keep thinking about him. It is useless. Think about God. Think about the atman as Vashista tells. If at all you have to think, think about that you are the atman, vichara. Why do you have to think about the corrupted person. That person was corrupted, he behaved badly. It’s alright, what to do? He has passed away now, you don’t have to keep thinking about him all the time. Well, he did a wrong thing. So like that you be observant, observe your mind. Whenever your mind thinks immediately apply the brake. “Oh, I was made to suffer by another person, but why am I showing my anger on these people, these innocent people? They have nothing to do, why should I misbehave with them?” So like that you have to be observant about your own mind, it’s important, because you are the best judge for your mind, everybody.

Is faith and devotion to the Guru, faith and dedication to the spiritual path and devotion to God all the same thing?

They are all the same. When you really love the master, you are loving God. The master if he is Self-realized, if you are lucky to have a Self-realized master as a master and you love, fall in love, it’s like loving God. So that’s what it is. They are all the same. Loving the spirituality is loving God. You are going on that path to get connected to divinity. You are loving the master so that the master can help you to get connected to divinity. Guru Govind Dono Khade, remember Kabir Das? “If both Guru and God come and stand in front of me to whom shall I prostrate first?” Then it comes out of confusion and says, “Let me prostrate to you my Lord, my Guru, because it is you who told me about God, otherwise I wouldn’t have known what God is. If the Guru hadn’t told me, I would have been wandering here and there, this and that, so many places for God, whereas the God is here, in our hearts”. That’s what the master said, close the eyes, go introvert, look at yourself, that is the ultimate truth. So it is all the same.

Are we missing out on anything by not practicing other meditation methods?

You are not missing anything. All those people who claim theirs is the only way for Self-realization or God, they do not know anything about Self-realization. They are simply egoistic. A person who becomes Self-realized, all methods are equal and same. All that is needed that you concentrate your mind. The mind needs to be purified when you are just watching. So whichever method is suitable, you just carry on. Never get confused. You are not going to miss anything. Your mind is the thing which will take you to the divinity.

When I started on my spiritual journey, I was very inspired but as I have aged, the experiences have become flat and regularized. What is the transformation that is happening?

 The actual transformation happens when all imagination ends. When all imagination in the mind ends, that becomes pure consciousness. Only the consciousness of existence is the experience. Peace is the real experience. Anything on which the peace depends is not real, is unreal. When peace is there on its own without any imagination within you, that is the real transformation, means you have overcome all imagination, effects of your own consciousness and have come closer to the truth of existence.

If peace and pure observation has become a more regular experience, where do we go from there?

 Eventually that consciousness also slowly dissolves and you remain in yourself.  Just for a clue because this is an experience – when it happens to you only you will know. Just now what clue I can give is imagine you are not this body; you are the space. You have to become that space. Instead of getting imaginations in you which you as the space are imagining. So, you are wondering also what will happen. You are the space, and you are going to be the space. Nothing else. Whatever you are, that the truth will be there. That is what is the supreme peace, supreme liberation once for all. As long as there is imagination, there is a doubt.

Could Babaji talk about the story of Nachiketa in the Katha Upanishad when he met Lord Yama?

 Actually what happened, this is slightly a myth has been added, that Nachiketa jumped into fire and went to the Yama loka and he was waiting there because Yama had gone on a tour. All these are the churning with his own consciousness. When he came to remind his father, “Father you promised that you will donate me to death god. What happened? You are forgetting that. You had given gifts to all other people, guests who came here.” Then the father gets disturbed. Starts even crying. “You are my only son, how can I donate to death god. It is not possible; I cannot afford to lose you.” Then a little bit of disgust happens within him, “Every day my father discoursed about death, birth, atman everything, I thought he’s very well versed, but when practically it came to sacrifice his son’s body, after all he was going to give this physical body to the fire and to Yama eventually. He was not going to do any harm to me. I am that soul. But why is that he got so bewildered and starts crying? That means he is not experienced. He has not seen the truth. He has been talking only through scriptures. I must know the truth.” Then in the actual story, he goes behind the ashram towards the forest, totally with vairagya and sits under a tree. Then in his visions only it appears to him as if he went to the Yama loka and all the honesty is shown first. “Because once my father has donated me to the death god, I belong to death god, I must be waiting, even if he has gone anywhere he is going to come back, is no problem. Now I belong to him. He is waiting in that vision.” So, then the Yama comes. In that vision appreciation for the honesty is given. That’s what as a child he had learned, we must be honest and that honesty will be appreciated. So Yama appreciates, “You are honest, so you go back to the world, I will give you three boons.” So then again one more thing was because his father was elder to him, he was father, he begot the child and nurtured him, was looking after, “So, under any circumstances I do not want the world to blame my father, that he failed to donate me to death god.” So, he asks that as the first boon. The second one he asks, “Some say after death also we exist, some say we do not know whether we exist or not. Nobody has come back to tell what the truth is, then what the truth is? There again the determination; “My father was not determined, he was thinking, he told he will donate me to death god, but he went back to his word. He didn’t keep up his word, that must not happen in my life, I must remain determined.” Then Yama raja says, “You do not have to bother about this, you go to the world and live for thousands of years.” So in the argument he goes on increasing the period, “One thousand years, five thousand years, ten thousand years you become emperor, you enjoy everything”, but he goes on and insists, Nachiketa, “After five thousand years the time will pass by, is there anything to stop me coming back to you? “No”, Yama says, “Death will happen, it is inevitable, no matter it is ten thousand years or fifty thousand years”. “Then what is the use of this fifty thousand years? Give me that knowledge now and here itself”. See, this is so significant in that Katopanishad argument. All we human beings keep wasting our time. “Oh, tomorrow I can meditate or some other day we can listen”, but that boy –  “Here and now I need that knowledge, I don’t want to waste even a moment, because any moment the death can come to this body”. That was the realization that had occurred to him. So, like that he insists, “No I don’t want any of your other boons”, insists this here and then. Then another important thing, when the master teaches, apt attention, that’s what Yama demands. “Okay, finally I will go on telling the truth only once. I will not repeat that. It is your duty to pay apt attention. My duty is to tell you once”. Then again, he tells third boon, surrendering to the master emotionally, devotionally in every way; that can be helpful to bring the grace of the guru. He tells, “Give me the third boon that you tell me only once and I pay apt attention and absorb the truth. Help me with that one”. Then Yama is very much graced upon, starts telling the truth, so that truth comes from within him. So that’s how the things go on. That beautiful truth of the Self. “It is everywhere, it is the fastest than even the mind, because it is already everywhere.  Now you see such a thing which is everywhere for your eyes and which is the one which exists in itself?” Like that Yama goes on telling, so the truth got revealed in the deeper Samadhi. So that’s where one has to go to understand the final truth, how, what will happen after it becomes consciousness? Nothing and something both disappears. This is a wonderful question [laughs].

End of Session