0:00 Intro
0:24 What is maya?
2:25 What’s the difference between maya and samsara?
5:25 What is the power of the illusion that makes it appear as a reality?
11:20 “The appearance is latent in the infinite consciousness”
15:04 Can the illusion go on and on endlessly until we get out of it?
20:56 Why does the Yoga Vasistha refer to waking, sleeping and deep sleep states as the three worlds?
27:24 Is it important to think of the wakeful state as like the dream state?
33:43 What happens when we awake from this illusion?
35:35 What is the cosmic creation and cosmic dissolution?
38:15 Yoga Vasistha extract: “Dissolution of the world appearance that has never been, is not and it will never be. All this is pure consciousness and supreme peace. It exists as the infinite.”
41:05 “Logical or physical conditioning is an appearance like the sound that is heard when the wind blows, which is heard though it is not there at all.”
44:26 Is it ok to believe that we are totally protected by god and guru as we go through this?
45:05 What about the spirit world, star beings, guides or mediums?
45:53 How to avoid compulsion for food?
47:20 What is the prime maya?
48:28 How can anyone get liberated unless he drops his ego and personhood?
49:15 How can truth be experienced?
50:22 Withdrawing the mind through meditation – a questioner asks about her elderly mother.
53:00 A story from the Yoga Vasistha about the illusion – we believe and see whatever our mind tells us.
59:18 Is there no truth in trying to reason out what the mind is showing?
1:00:36 Unable to gather the strength to do something challenging.
1:01:32 What is the difference between Turiya and Nirvikalpa Samadhi?
1:01:55 Why is fear not included as one of the six shapes of the mind?
1:03:20 Doing puja for ancestors – how does this work?
1:05:56 Is whatever is playing out in this birth carried over from the previous birth’s resolutions?
1:07:32 Does this meditation in Babaji’s presence serve as initiation?

Discourse: In Quest of Truth – online Q&A no.195
Maaya the Endless Illusion 
Recorded: 28 October 2024

Start of Questions and Answers
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Question:   The topic is a Maaya, the endless illusion.  So, all the questions I took from the Yoga Vashista, whatever has come to me.  I think I will do a few sessions more on this topic.  So, it can continue.  So, to start with, Babaji, what is maaya?

Babaji Maharaj:   Though there is no particular definition to say, “This is all the maaya“, however, some basic points; like when your own mind imagines, and considering that imagination as a reality, creates such a situation within your mind as if there is fear, as if there is happiness, as if there is unhappiness, and you get to see a certain object which may not exist at all, which has no existence value – like this.  So, this is all basically recognized as an illusion, maaya.  Because I have also told, when your mind thinks, a thought appears; watching that thought, mind forgets, “This thought is there because of my own imagination.”  Instead, it gets involved with the thought, considering that thought to be a reality.  That is illusion.  You see, that thought doesn’t exist at all.  Means it has no existence value.  It simply has appeared temporarily because of an imagination within the mind.  So, the thought also belongs to the mind; raw material for the thought is also mind.  As the mind is infinite, the thought also will go back to the infinity, finally.  But yet, it appears to be so real, and it can generate such emotions of happiness, unhappiness, fear, or any such thing.  So, this is the basic definition of maaya, illusion. 

Question:   Thank You, very much.  Is there any difference between maaya and samsaara? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Samsaara is also generally, synonymously in spirituality mentioned as maaya only.  Means, the samsaara is a widespread illusion.  In my opinion, that can be considered as a widespread illusion.  Just like if your mind has got involved not just with one imagination, millions of imaginations are there.  That’s what I’m trying to tell.  Then it gets involved with widespread illusion.  The same with this universe that you get to see outside.  It can suck you so badly, so deeply, life after life.  So many lives would have passed by, and you won’t realize what mistake you did, how you got involved by your own creation.  Just now, as a human being, and as a mind, you are just a micro speck in that creation also.  But when this mind called consciousness was with its 100,000 potency, or much bigger potency consciousness which we call as a higher divine consciousness even – just for the sake of understanding, I am using this terminology – so, when it would have imagined, this universe would have been just like your objects in your mind.  They are all micro specks, but your mind is larger.  It is like the absolute; it is holding.  In the same way that consciousness has been holding all this universe.  But now, the same universe, because life after life, every life after, the consciousness gets diluted, splits, so its potency decreases. 

Now, what the humans, we call as our own mind – though this mind would have been able to achieve amazing things of discoveries and inventions, a great, wonderful thing, but yet compared to that higher consciousness, this mind can be only a micro speck.  That is why this mind cannot handle this universe.  So, this universe is widespread.  So that is what is generally addressed as samsaara, which sucks you, which drags you into a bondage within your mind.  You create such bondage from which it becomes so difficult; it would appear almost as impossible to get out, escape from this bondage of illusion.  That is what is known as samsaara. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  So, what power does it have that makes all beings experience it as a reality, this illusion as totally real – we consider this as the reality, not the Self? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Consciousness has such an amazing, energetic power.  Simple mind, when it imagines, then it makes its own self to forget.  Let alone it can create illusion for others, it itself also forgets that “This is there because of my own imagination”; such is the power of illusion, of the creative power of the consciousness, in other words.  Creative power is so amazing that it can suck you yourself into your own imagination.  So, how carefully you have to create or imagine.  Say, you create a beautiful painting, you might fall in love with that one; you can get carried away.  You even forget that you created that painting also when you get absorbed into that beautiful painting; such is the wonder, such is the power.  So, the mind gets carried away.  And this universe, one time it appears so beautiful.  It’s a different thing if we humans out of greed and stupidness are destroying this beauty.  But watching this beauty, mountains, greenery, oceans, space, stars, astronomical bodies, celestial bodies, amazing.  One after another, amazing!  You will never believe – “When did we create, who created?” – also you keep wondering.  But such a wondrous thing, it has been created and you cannot make out from where did it come.  People since ages are doing research, astronomically trying to know the secrets of universe, from where did it come, what did it do, how it has come into existence; all these things are happening. 

So, imagine, such is the power of that.  All power is in the consciousness only.  That is why consciousness has an edge over its creation.  Consciousness is considered as absolute.  Like space is the absolute.  Space is the truth.  When the truth expands with imagination by spinning, then the universe also expands.  That means in your mind, imagine, a smaller example; when your mind spins and expands with imagination, those imagined things, objects also expand.  The same thing we call in a larger way as universe, and the truth we can take it as.  Truth is the Ultimate Truth, the Divinity.  When that expands in imagination, so then the universe also expands.  Galaxies after galaxies, Milky Ways after Milky Ways.  Every day you keep watching the news, you get new things discovered by astronomical giants through so many means.  One they talk of black hole, another they talk of a star, another they talk of a planet, this appearing, that appearing, this getting crashed and this thing happening.  Everything appears so wondrous, but they are all micro specks compared to the space that is the vastness. 

So, that is how the power of consciousness is so big that it can suck anybody.  If you tell “This does not exist”, nobody will believe you.  Such is the power of the appearance.  Though in my answers or talks many times I would have told, “This universe has appearance value, but not the existence value”.  Because in our observations in samadhi and deeper meditations and then watching this universe also, everything is impermanent.  The universe is impermanent.  Today it is there, tomorrow it may not be there, or it can go even for a billion years; nobody knows.  When it happens like that, that means it is impermanent.  It is impermanent and that is why it is appearing.  Everybody is able to see that one.  If you stand on a square and start shouting, “This is illusion, this does not exist”, everybody will pelt stones on you thinking that you are a mad person, because they cannot understand in that state – the truth cannot be told like that one.  So that is why for a while we tell at least you agree that this is impermanent, this universe is impermanent.  It appears, it might be there.  Finally, I would like to tell this has only appearance value and no existence value and only the consciousness has existence value, because everything has come out of the consciousness.  All the thoughts that are in the mind have come out of the mind only.  So that is how consciousness is more powerful. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, in Yoga Vashista it says the appearance is latent in the Infinite Consciousness.  So, can Babaji comment on that?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, in your mind, all the appearance, it is all in the mind only.  It cannot be driven away beyond the mind; there is no such thing.  Like, everything that has appeared in the space – the word is used as cosmos – so, everything is within that cosmos, within that space only; it all exists within.  And no object can escape the space and go away where there is no space, impossible.  So, that is why that space is recognized as the final and absolute, which is holding.  Means, space is vast and it has allowed the universe to play.  But the universe, or in other words object matter, what we call as matter, matter cannot cross the border of space and cannot go away anywhere where there is no space; there is no such thing.  It has to be playing within the space and universe might be appearing, another universe might be disappearing.  A planet might be appearing, another planet might be crashing, and one star might be burning, another star might be appearing.  But all the game, all the play is within the space, within the Ultimate Truth only.  Ask, if anybody is there, any power who can take any matter out of the space  – not the outer space, of what we use the terminology – where there is no space, that is what I am talking.  If there is any place.   As Lord Shiva spoke to Adi Shankaracharya; when He came as an untouchable person with a country-made alcohol, then Adi Shankara said “Give way, man”   He [Lord Shiva] said “Show me in this Brahmanda…”  Brahmanda means the absolute where there is no beginning and no end.  Anda means it is just like an egg, egg-shaped.  Brahma, which is beyond imaginations, space, “If there is any place beyond the space, show me in which you and me both exist, then I will go away there, and you have your space.”  Then Adi Shankara was surprised, “This is not an ordinary man who has this knowledge, wisdom.”  He prostrates. 

So, like that, nowhere it cannot go.  It has to play within that space; there is a space, and it can go on playing anything.  If you have the power to make anything play, you play, but you will also be limited, because you are already limited with the existence of your physical body.  Beyond that you cannot do anything.  When the body goes, you are helpless, you don’t know what happens to you, whether you are there or not also, you are not sure until you experience the truth itself.  Right?  So, these are all some of the points where if you apply the wisdom, you can think and try to understand that this is such an amazing thing – truth, and the space, and appearance. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, it is said that this illusion can be endless, as much as we think, as much as we create, it can go on and on forever.  It is because this illusion also is expanding inside the infinite consciousness, so it doesn’t have any barriers, it can go on and on until we don’t come out? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, this is possible only through an individual effort and experience; standing as a human being, nobody can make the universe disappear suddenly.  You have to reach the higher consciousness through which this universe got created, and it is happening.  Another thing I have always told, since after my tapas, in my teaching, this universe is happening due to Divinity but not according to Divine’s wishes.  Simply the existence of the Supreme Consciousness is making all this, but there is one way for you to get liberated.  The day when you realize this is an illusion, and this is going to suck you into happiness and unhappiness, loneliness and all such things keep happening.  It doesn’t allow you to remain contented and in supreme peace.  If that is your goal, the supreme peace and contentment, then you can withdraw yourself from this bondage.  That is why this is known as the samsaara bondage, this illusion.  It will play.  It will not play according to your imagination just now with what potency of the mind that you have.  This universe, you cannot make this universe dance according to your tunes.  The universe is dancing.  That is Lord Nataraja, the dancing Lord Shiva; it is happening.  But if you want to liberate yourself, if you believe that this is a bondage, because this is sucking you, this is not allowing you to sit peacefully.  You want to sort out one problem, ten other crops up and you are tired.  Enough is enough, you leave it to the Divine, “Whatever you want to do, do it.”  Like that, problems after problems keep coming, keep coming. 

That is, the one way is that first you try to stop your mind.  Because mind is here, you know what the mind is.  When you close the eyes, the thoughts and visions that are coming is what is the mind.  They are all happening within the mind.  And this mind’s potency is within this physical body.  Just now it is hidden.  This much is sure for now, this is what you can know.  More than this, it is not easy to understand or know the secrets of universe and the Ultimate Truth, it’s not possible.  So, you first attend to this mind’s imaginations.  You try to make your mind peaceful, overcome all the imaginations, stop them.  That’s what is the practice of meditation, the technique we are teaching every day.  Just watch in between eyebrows, don’t bother about the thoughts or visions that are there.  In the same way, when you become a Self-realized soul one day, your mind stops bothering about this universe.  That doesn’t mean that you are indifferent to the world.  You can help anybody who is in trouble.  You can be compassionate.  You can listen to people’s troubles, botherations, problems, and you can pray for them.  You induce faith in them, everything.  But your consciousness is at peace.  It itself doesn’t go into a botheration.  See, if you have a problem, I can pray for you.  I can listen to your problems, no problem.  But there is no reason why I should not be at peace.  Should I also be worrying because you are worrying?  Instead, I should try to teach you not to worry.  Simply by worrying, you cannot help anybody, either yourself or anybody else or this universe, you cannot attend.  This will always remain a puzzle.  You cannot understand this truth.  So, first, attend to your mind which is into imaginations since time immemorial, that also.  Life after life, life after life. 

So, it watches the universe.  Everybody’s mind watches and gets to see the universe depending on their mental attitude.  Hundred people you want to survey.  Ask them, “What is this universe for you?”  Different people will tell different things.  A poet may tell his own imaginations; a scientist may tell his own observations.  Like this, different people.  An astronomer may tell his own observations.  Everything is happening.  To people, it appears depending on their mental attitude.  So, this attitude, if you can stop, you would have liberated yourself.  You would enjoy the supreme peace and contentment.  Then in that process, you will understand the secret of this universe also.  But not now. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, going more about the illusion, why does Yoga Vashista refer to waking, sleep, and deeper sleep stages as the three worlds?  What is the meaning of that?

Babaji Maharaj:   So, whatever was in front of them, they have referred to that.  See, when you are up in the physical body, just now what you get to see, waking state.  When this body goes into sleep, in that sleep, that is what is swapana, you might dream.  A different world is there.  Not this world.  A mixture of this, what you have seen, what you have imagined.  Everything might appear.  Personality might be different.  Things might be happening in a different way.  So many things.  So, that means, brain has its own limitation.  When the mind gets applied to the brain, whatever capacity it is, whatever it has absorbed, it mixes up everything and creates a different world.  So, that is what is the sleeping state they mentioned.  So, that is how, different states. 

And when you go to sound sleep in the body, means when the brain almost totally stops, but a little bit is active only to keep you alive, more than that there is nothing; it is not active, so there may not be a dream sequence also.  Dreams also if you have observed, so many varieties.  Sometimes, dreams are a very strong picture, mega-pixel potency is very strong.  You are unable to forget; years you can remember.  Such a strong thing.  Sometimes, it is a vague picture.  You would have dreamt something.  By the morning you get up, you would have forgotten it.  “I dreamt something.  I am forgetting.”  Like that.  The picture was very vague and the lowest resolution picture you can call it.  So, like that, it happens.  So, that is what they have tried to explain in their talks.  Wake-up state, dream state, sleeping state.  Like all these things – deep sleep state; different states they have tried to explain.  In all these different states, the universe appears in different ways.  Whatever appears is created then and there itself and which has nothing to do with this. 

Like when you dream, actually, in truth of science, it has nothing to do with this world, what you are seeing now in the waking state.  Yet, some of this wake-up state world also might be in your dream.  Whatever your brain would have absorbed, and your mind would have registered, when they go into a collision, collude with each other, then a dream sequence comes up; and the world.  Then it might make you wonder.  Something you saw in this world, that would have come, but that might be a mixture, not necessarily exactly whatever you saw would have happened.  So, it will create another confusion for you.  “What does this dream mean?”  There are many teachers, they try to explain in different ways depending on their own imaginations.  Sky is the limit for any imagination.  You tell that “I saw so many colors in my dream”, and they will tell a big story of “This color denotes this thing, this color denotes…” – everything is simply illusion.  Nothing really such exists.  Whatever; you tell that you saw, and another person imagines and tells you a story and you accept that story and that is not the truth.  A dream is after all a dream.  That a yogi understands.  That is how He understands this world also is simply an illusion, does not exist, though it is so solid now.  Because this body is solid.  We are watching through this body which itself is a part of this universe, matter – this is not beyond.  Until we are able to cross this border of time and space barrier, we won’t be able to experience this truth.  Only in samadhi, a real samadhi. 

When people read in books, when they listen to our talk, they think that they can go into samadhi overnight.  They want to demand to a Guru, “Please touch me and make me go to samadhi.  Initiate me.”  Things don’t happen like that.  Sometimes, years of practice – what all you have acquired in your mind, nobody else can stop it.  A Guru will guide you how to stop that one.  Slowly, slowly, step by step, stage after stage you try to stop, you practice to stop that one.  Then you go in and in and in and in and as you go introvert and introvert, you go on stopping.  Just now if you try to think it can be so mind-boggling and can drive you mad even; you don’t have to bother.  Step by step the Master teaches, but it is an amazing knowledge and wisdom when you acquire, when you are able to observe.  So that is how this has been told.  Vashista talks of this sleeping state, waken state, deep sleep state, different terminologies they have used.  All to denote, finally, just like you experience that also as an illusion, in the same way this universe also is an illusion in the state of the highest consciousness.  That’s what I try to use in my own terms of hundred percent potency, hundred thousand percent potency, ten percent potency, it’s all different consciousness potencies.  So that is what is being talked by Vashista to explain to Sri Rama about the illusions in different stages the mind or the consciousness creates for itself and gets involved, just like a spider creates a web and gets involved into the web. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, about the dream state, Babaji, Vashista continually says that this world, the wakeful state is like the dream state, it is not different.  All that we see is like a dream.  So, can Babaji comment on what is the nature of the dream, how important is it for us to understand this wakeful state as also a dream, as an illusion?  How important is this point?

Babaji Maharaj:   Some of the points if you observe, just for a clue for understanding sake only I will be talking.  Before also, I have spoken about this thing.  When you dream, means when this body will sleep and you get a dream, as long as you are dreaming, you will never understand that you are dreaming.  That dream appears to be so solid and perfect and reality.  Until you get up from that dream, you will never understand that you are dreaming.  Only when you get up from that dream, in this body, in the waking state, you understand or you tell somebody, “O, I dreamt like this in the night.  O, I was dreaming.  O, what a dream it was, my God.”  And yet you don’t understand what the dream is; you are puzzled.  “What is the meaning of that dream?”  A yogi tells, “After all it is a dream.”  Dream means an imagined substance, a created substance which has no existence value.  At the most, it can tell the status of your mind, what it has been absorbing since time immemorial; get rid of that.  Practice sadhana to stop your mind as soon as possible, when this body is available, a one-time opportunity!  Once this body goes, you lose control, you don’t know what will happen to you.  Again what type of body will come or not come?  Some believe in this, some believe in that, some don’t believe in anything.  So, like this, so many theories are floated around the world.  If you try to go to different Gurus, you will get different theories.  And it can be so confusing and mind-boggling.  But this body is there now. 

This is a golden, diamond, whatever you want to call it, the precious opportunity that you can know this secret about yourself, about your mind’s imagination, your dreams and this universe, everything you can know.  This is possible if you practice sadhana meditation slowly and steadily.  Just by reading – I am alerting everybody who are in this class – just by reading theories or listening to talks, don’t be in a rush that you want to become Self-realized tomorrow morning itself.  So, you will be cheating yourself.  Simply by sitting it doesn’t happen.  The mind has to recede.  It has to become quiet.  Within your mind you must become quiet.  Otherwise, your mind can become fickle.  Fickle minded means it is not stable.  Today it wants to do this, tomorrow it wants to do something.  Today it wants to give up a job and sit for tapas, tomorrow it wants to go for a job again.  The mind keeps oscillating, fluctuating.  So, there needs to be a firmness.  To prepare yourself for the firmness, go slow, step by step, keep working.  Be in your way of life.  Don’t try to adopt any particular way of life.  Whatever way of life you are there, there itself you will be able to stop your mind and realize.  All that is needed is you take out a little bit of time.  In the twenty-four hours, you work for your job, you do your business and you rest, you have recreation, go to beaches, go to restaurants, go to movies, no problem.  Just one hour is good enough.  Just now, take one hour and try to sit.  In that one hour let your efforts be a hundred percent.  With enthusiasm, with all the patience, discipline, total dedication, understand what the Master is instructing.  Just watch in between eyebrows.  OK, even if it becomes difficult to locate in between eyebrows also, don’t bother.  Just watch when you close the eyes.  When you are watching means you will not analyze or make a judgment or try to think what it is, what is in front.  When you close the eyes, in front of your eyeballs, don’t bother whether there is darkness, whether there is any light, whether there is any divine figure, whether there is any demonic figure, nothing.  Just don’t recognize anything, don’t bother.  Just watch.  Nothing is important other than your mind becoming quiet. 

That is the top priority – your mind becoming quiet.  The rest of the things all can happen later.  Nothing should be interesting for you.  Nothing should attract you in that one hour during meditation.  Any vision that comes must not be attractive to you.  This point, remember!  If you can remember this point of Baba, you will win.  What is important is – your mind becoming quiet is important.  That is the priority, that is the dedication, that is the discipline, that is the patience you have to exercise. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, about the dream.  When we dream that we die and then we awaken from that dream, we know that nothing has happened to us, that personality and everything has disappeared, but we are there.  So, what happens when we awaken from this ignorance, from this illusion?  That is the same thing, more or less, as an example that happens at the time? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, you would have imagined about a calamity, a great danger falling on you, and you would have got sucked into that one, and you would be worried and wondering, scared, panicked, everything would be going.  Suddenly you realize, simply you are imagining and nothing was or is there at all – what a great relief that you get.  So, when in this body and in the dream when you sleep also, it can be panicking or anything can be there; you might be worried, you might be in a deep pit, and you don’t know how to get out of that place, you would be wondering.  But suddenly you get up from that dream, and you will feel a big relief that you are not in the pit, and there was no pit at all.  That is what Vashista also tries to tell, “There was a fort which did not have any walls at all.”  Remember that story?  Like that.  So, everything is due to illusions and imaginations.  So, when you realize, such great relief and contentment and reassuring supreme peace descends on you. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, now, continuing with the illusion, what is the cosmic creation and cosmic dissolution? What does this concept mean?

Babaji Maharaj:   The ‘cosmic’ word might have been used for this space, perhaps.  And what is happening in the world, means this universe is getting created, planets after planets, stars after stars, galaxies after galaxies coming into existence.  And some galaxies getting destroyed; these are happening.  Perhaps for this only the cosmos [word], energy… Many people have used different terminologies.  The energetic force which we recognize as Divinity, as Supreme Consciousness and Supreme Energy, that force is cosmic energy.  Some people recognize it as cosmic; cosmos.  And that becomes fashionable also.  Many people want to adopt it because some Westerner is talking about it, some other person is talking about it, some scientist is talking about it.  So, everybody tries to ask, “What is this cosmos?  In the cosmos, something is happening.”  Brahmanda is the word they used earlier.  In this universe, in the space only everything is happening.  So, that is what is cosmos; cosmic theories are floated. 

But nobody knows the final answer or the root cause.  The root cause is the Self, the Ultimate Truth.  That cannot be shown, demonstrated or explained.  You have to experience in deep samadhi state, but you practice slowly, step by step.  Never get in a rush that you want to achieve it tomorrow itself and become a Guru.  Things don’t come so easily.  It takes time.  You have to practice, you have to practice.  Just by listening to this theory that I am talking, it doesn’t work until you practice, you know?  You have to practice.  That’s why every day the first one-hour that I made you to sit for meditation, that is the truth, real truth – that you try to become quiet first.  First, you try to cross this nursery school of quietening your mind, how far you can be successful in remaining quiet in the mind and then see slowly the wonders start happening. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Now, to finish with the session, I just want to read two extracts of the Yoga Vashista.  If Babaji  can comment on them?  So, one is “Dissolution of world appearance that has never been, is not and it will never be.  All this is pure consciousness and Supreme Peace.  It exists as the Infinite.” 

Babaji Maharaj:   To tell in theory, it tells “This universe never came into existence”.  But before that when you are in the universe, if somebody tells this as a theory, it will not be easily acceptable.  It will not enter your consciousness also.  When you experience the dissolution, everything collapsing in deeper nirvikalpa samadhi only, then you will understand.  That’s what Vashista is trying to call.  And it is a clue to the student, because now, on listening to these question-answers or theories, many students might start wondering, “How did this happen?  When did this happen?”  Always the great teachers have emphasized, “As soon as possible, get rid of your imaginations.  Just now, do not bother how did it happen or when did it happen,  because it never happened at all.”  Whatever is the truth, if the Master tells you repeatedly, “It never happened.  It never happened.  Everything is alright”, then it should sit in your mind.  Then you stop bothering about the universe, why it happened at all.  Like that. 

So, that is the reason Vashista talks about it.  Because in the end of Yoga Vashista also, He tells, “All these days whatever I was discoursing to you, hey Rama, are also false.  Nothing really exists.  It is there and it is not there.  So, your job is quietening your mind.  Try to stop! That is Your job.  Then if I talk, you will understand better or You will understand on Your own.”  That’s what Vashista tells, and that is truth.  Today, after realizing, we are able to realize that truth of what Vashista was talking.  But before that, we simply took it in good faith and tried to become quiet when the Master said. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, the last one is continuing the previous extract.  It says “Even physiological or physical conditioning is an appearance.  Like the sound that is heard when the wind blows, which is heard, though it is not there at all.” 

Babaji Maharaj:   That’s what I tried to tell.  This universe, to everybody appears this universe not in one particular way.  To different human beings or different creatures, depending on their attitude, their ability to think or their brain, whatever, all these things combined, the universe would appear to them.  For a yogi, nothing-appearance is there.  But for a poet, it could be different, “What beautiful mountains and greenery?”  And for a politician it will be, “O, this is a kingdom, I need to own this.  I have to become the king of this place.”   Like that different people will start thinking and the universe will appear to them in the same way that they think.  So, that’s why I have also told nobody knows what this universe is.  It appears as apple because you think that it is an apple.  You think it is an apple because others also are thinking it as an apple.  And that’s why it appears as an apple, but you don’t know what it is.  It can be so mind-boggling if you don’t hear or understand.  You call it apple because you think that as an apple.  You think that as an apple because you saw others also calling it as an apple.  Somebody taught you this is an apple.  So, that’s why you started thinking that as an apple.  But you don’t know what that is; you simply believed. 

So, everything of this universe, we all believe.  That is why Vashista tells in the end, “No need to believe what I am talking on all this ever.  Whatever I am teaching is also false.  Just get down to becoming quiet.  At least believe in that.  You become quiet and see the truth to yourself.”  So, this is such a highest truth.  The highest truth has been told through this wonderful scripture.  That’s why Swamiji also told, “In this scripture the truth has been told as it is, simply, purified way.”  No added masalas are there.  Nothing is there.  This is it and this is it.  That’s all they have told.  They have not tried to impress upon anybody.  They have not tried to attract anybody.  Simply, this is the truth.  You want to take it or you don’t want to take it.

Facilitator:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, that’s all for today.  In a few weeks we will continue with the topic. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Thank you.  Thank you, Javier.  All the questions are very nice.  You extracted very good questions to discuss.  I am sure others would have benefited and understood better. 

Question:   So, is it okay to believe that we are protected as we go through this?  That we are protected by God and Guru as we go through this, as we let go of everything and there is nothing left. 

Babaji Maharaj:   First thing, you need to understand who you are.  Then you think of that real You – that you are protected you will understand better.  Well, to have faith in the name of Guru is no problem.  That will help you to have some peace at least instead of worrying.  Right?

Question:   Hello, Babaji.  Thank You for Your time with us.  My question is, what about the spirit world?  You have people that channel star beings and have guides and mediums.  Can You explain what that is?

Babaji Maharaj:   They are all imaginations.  One human being trying to fool another human being.  When one is ready to believe, the other one is ready to make believe.  That’s all. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You. 

Question:   Namaskar Babaji.  So, I have a compulsion of food.  So, how to avoid compulsion and how it is not good for a spiritual person?

Babaji Maharaj:   Generally, only I can tell my opinion; all over the world different habits, different cultures, availabilities are there.  That’s why my Guru avoided talking any particular thing.  So, try to take lighter meals which you can digest easily; vegetables, all these things which gives proteins, all such things which can help you.  If it is lighter food, then it will not create any heaviness in the brain because along with the blood and oxygen, whatever food you intake, that will become the blood, and that blood has to be supplied to the brain also along with other parts of the body.  Depending on this, dullness or active, all this happens in the brain.  So, when you are meditating, you can be better alert if the brain also is alert.  So, that is important.  That way it can be helpful.  Otherwise, you can adopt any food that you like, healthier food; try to take smaller meals.  That is what I would recommend. 

Question:   Pranaam Babaji.  Babaji, this question of maaya, is it something we as humans haven’t understood in the sense that it is a mistaken identification with this body?  Is that a maaya?  One is mistaken identity with this body mind, for which ‘I am’ is the principal, that “I am this, Rajiv” or “I am XYZ” – is that maaya?  Or is it consciousness, like You were just saying in the deep sleep, susuphti state, consciousness is nothing, but in the waking state, consciousness creates this universe?  Is that the prime maaya?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, the prime maaya is when you believe yourself as something else that which you are not.  That is the first thing.  That is how the trouble starts.  And then everything that you consider is happening, which is not you, becomes maaya, expands. 

Same Questioner:   True, true.  Babaji.  So then the second point, Babaji, liberation can never be for the person, because liberation is from personhood.  So, how can anybody ever get liberated?  Unless he drops his ego and his personhood, which is only possible if he goes beyond the mind.

Babaji Maharaj:   One has to drop that ego and quieten the mind.  That is the basic idea of teaching meditation and repeatedly telling “Just watch” when you meditate and “Do not imagine”; that imagination must come to an end, then the attention of the consciousness turns to itself.  Just now, your consciousness is preoccupied with its imagination. 

Same Questioner:   Yes, yes, Babaji, that’s very true.  And my last small question, Babaji, is – truth can never be experienced, because for truth to be experienced, it means there is an experiencer.  So, who is experiencing and who is experiencing what?  As long as this divide is there, truth cannot be experienced; truth should be… truth just is.  I the finite can never understand the infinite and I should not even attempt to understand the infinite. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Exactly, that is why you are being taught just to become quiet.  That is all.  You are not being told that you need to understand this.  

Same Questioner:   So true.  And that all happens in the present moment, it happens only in the now, this being quiet.

Babaji Maharaj:   Even now, the quietness is there, mind is either brooding about the past or is anxious about the future. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji.  

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  Prostrations at Your Lotus Feet. Babaji, I want to ask about withdrawing the mind.  Now, I understand withdrawing the mind through meditation.  I want to ask in context of my mother who is in her nineties – this sort of clever and engaged woman, the way she was, is now sort of happy, not happy, but she just sits and daydreams.  And her mind is not bad; she gets a little forgetful and confused, but she just wants to sit in a chair and daydream.  She doesn’t meditate, she doesn’t do anything else.  And it seems like a withdrawal of the mind, but the way I understand it, it’s not the same as withdrawing the mind through meditation.  So, I’m just trying to understand this. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, in this meditation that is being taught which our Guru passed on to us, the mind is trying to become quiet on its own without getting concentrated to any one thought also – trying to overcome all thoughts once for all.  All other methods are, the mind is trying to concentrate on one thought instead of having so many other thoughts, so that is all.  Finally, the mind has to become quiet to get introvert, means to get attentive to itself and finally get absorbed into the Self.  So that is what the thing is. 

Same Questioner:   So, I think perhaps my mother’s mind is a dullness of the mind because of old age.  Can meditation then help us –  I mean, even though our physical bodies may age, can it help us keep our mental state…. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Something is better than nothing, it can definitely help.  If she agrees to sit and then agrees to just watch then that can be very helpful to her.  At least it will continue in the next life.  The next body what she obtains, it can be very positive and a better one, an inclination will be there from childhood itself.  It will be helpful. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You so much, Babaji. 

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  Babaji, on this topic of maaya, Sage Vashista had described this through a couple of stories.  Sage Vashista told about this king who believed himself to be very strong, had control over his mind and thought that nothing could disturb him.  And then one day somebody enters his court and asks him to sit on a horse, and for one hour  when he closes his eyes he sees himself to be in a desert, stuck, not drinking water and turns into a tribesman, is hunting, begetting children, family.  So, by the end of the story, the king was super disturbed when he wakes up and sees all of these things because he believes it was him.  And he tries to verify and goes to that same place which he saw in the dream when his eyes were closed.  And he saw that everything had happened the same way, the way he saw.  So, in short, the whole story was saying that this maaya is so strong that if you try to verify you will get all the means to verify that it is true, but in the end it’s unreal.  So, probably that’s what we face every day in our life as well that whatever our mind tells us we believe, and we also see the fruits and results happening according to it. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Exactly.  That’s what I was trying to tell about the apple.  Apple is just one small example; entire universe, all the stories.  So, when you want to believe in that way, you call it apple because you think of it as an apple and that’s why it is appearing to you as an apple.  And you started thinking because you heard others also calling it as apple.  Now, in this world, it is useful.  If you want an apple, at least you can order an apple, you won’t tell that you want a potato, like that.  For that way, names and all these things can be meaningful in this world.  It can be useful, but when it comes to the highest knowledge, nobody knows what it is.  Simply, we have adopted that for sake of our understanding and communications, so that is what we need to understand. 

If we try to verify and completely start thinking this as a truth, then we get involved with that truth.  That’s what in that story also, if the king had kept quiet, “This after all is only a dream” – instead of that he went to verify.  It all appeared to him because his mind was embedded into the thinking and assuming profusely like that only, that’s why everything’s went on appearing to him in the same way.  That is why one thing we keep teaching, if you can be more positive in your mind, you can shape a positive destiny for yourself.  If you are negative in your mind, you can be shaping a negative destiny for yourself.  If you can become quiet, you can become one with the Ultimate Truth.  So, you have to choose what you want to do.  So, the story is told, and then it is you who has to finally be careful about this thing.  That’s why when people come to me with dreams, I don’t try to tell any meaning at all.  Different teachers may tell so many meanings, this meaning, that meaning, “This is happening”.  I realized a dream is after all a dream.  If we tell a meaning, then that meaning sits into your mind, and the things will appear to you in the same way as you get to hear.  So, this is how a hypnotizing effect happens.  What we call, in other words, as brainwashing.  Watching this universe, we get brainwashed so quickly until we know the actual truth through Self-realization.  So, this is the highest knowledge. 

I am not objecting anybody to live in this world and identify anything, but we just need to understand everything is only because of imagination.  Just like a well-seasoned actor in a movie or a dream, he acts.  When another person watches him acting, he appears so realistic, a villain or a hero or anything.  But that may not be the actual situation.  So, that person if he is aware, “I am not this of which I am playing as a role; actually, I am something else”, then he is out of bondage, he is a liberated one.  Otherwise, if he starts believing that he is a hero and then if he comes, and in real life also if he tries to behave like that trying to beat others, he will get beaten up.  That is what the world is.  So, that is what the story tells.  He believed that, become curious.  Curiosity is also known as a bad inquisitiveness.  So, that can drag you and suck you into the maaya, illusion.  He wanted to verify, then he went.  Because it was sitting in his consciousness so strongly, he got to see the same thing.  But it was all imagination.  That is what Vashista tells as a great teacher of psychology.  Amazing psychiatrists they were, a Self-realized soul.  He talks this in a beautiful way.  Because it was sitting in his mind, everything appeared to him in the same way.  So, for this, he tells, “A friend might appear as a foe.  A foe might appear as a friend.”  If it sits in your mind, always you will be thinking the moment you come across that person – a foe will appear to you.  He may not be a foe at all. 

Same Questioner:   So, Babaji, that means there is no truth in trying to verify or reason out what mind is showing – in the end, mind just has to go quiet?  Because the world will happen the way it happens, and let it happen.  Let not it absorb in the mind.  Because that is it.  We can’t just prove through a scientific experiment whether the gold is gold or water is water.  That’s it. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, definitely, you are true.  That is not possible.  So simply play the game in this world because that is needed.  But don’t get carried away within you, in your mind anything as a reality.  Then when death happens to the body, you get liberated.  So, this is a recommended goal, but it’s up to one’s own choice what they want to adopt, how they can adopt.  You meditate.  Then you will be able to understand the reality.  Then you live a normal life.  Be a normal person.  Be a software engineer.  Keep working and behave as a normal human being that nobody can make out that you have realized yourself at all.  Like that you live and then get liberated.  This is possible.  Otherwise, you will get carried away. 

Same Questioner:   Got it Babaji.  Thank You. 

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  My love to You on Dusshera.  Today is Dusshera, Babaji.  I am unable to get the strength to recite the Ramayan.  I asked You about the things earlier that I want to recite the Ramayan to some children and to their parents.  So, I am unable to get the strength.  I feel that I am not capable of it. 

Babaji Maharaj:   You meditate.  Then your capacity comes.  You will understand your capacity.  It will benefit you.  But first you practice meditation.  Your mind will become stronger.  And then you will understand everything what to do. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You Babaji.  Okay, thank You Babaji.  Pranaam

Question:   Babaji, I wanted to understand the two words, turiya and nirvikalpa samadhi.  How are they are related or are they different things?

Babaji Maharaj:   When you attain nirvikalpa samadhi, you are in the turiya state.  Means the duality has ended once for all. 

Question:   Pranaam Babaji.  It’s just a simple question regarding the six shapes of the mind.  You’ve explained them very clearly.  But when you think about them, why isn’t fear included? Because it is a very powerful thing that can overtake one. 

Babaji Maharaj:   See, a fear will come under one of these headings.  If you are greedy, you become fearful that you don’t want to lose it.  If you are angry also, a fear can come – “What will happen now?  Will I achieve, will I not achieve?”  When such a confusion or a doubt comes, then the fear occurs.  So, the ancient sages saw these six headings as the shapes that the mind takes.  Everything else, any other important terminology like a fear that you are using, they all come under any one of these or two or three of these due to which this thing also follows, a fear comes.  Once, if you overcome all these six, there won’t be any fear at all. 

Same Questioner:   Because it all seems to revolve around the ego.  That’s the main cause of fear. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Finally, yes, exactly. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You. 

Question:   Namaskaram Babaji.  I’d like to understand the puja which we do for our ancestors.  We say that when we die, the spirit takes another body and continues its journey.  Is doing this puja then, in what form?  Are we calling back the spirits to do the puja?  I don’t understand that.  If I’m going to believe my spirit is going to go to the next journey in my next life, how am I going to call the spirit back to bless me or stay with me or please the spirit?

Babaji Maharaj:   So, a lot of myths have been created around these things.  You know, what we call it as shraadha, actually paying shraddanjali, tributes to the departed soul.  Once the body goes, they won’t remember anything of their previous life.  Just like you are in this body, in sincerity, you don’t remember any of your previous lives.  Somebody might be crying for you.  You would have died, and you have taken this body again.  But what takes you further is your own karma, your own sadhana, your own spiritual exercises.  This is one thing.  And because when others have departed, when we are in this world, trying to remember their good qualities, the inspiration that we got, the things that we learned from them, if they are parents or any such thing, grandparents, how they looked after us, how they brought us up,  so thus we pay tributes, and we pray for the soul by remembering the Divinity.  That’s what in my opinion it should be.  And you can feed any poor people if you like, anybody; you think that the poor and needy is there.  So, that’s what the vratha used to be.  But it would have been messed up today, confusing people.  Just because you pray only, the other soul will go to things; that doesn’t happen.  A monk is not married.  When he attains death, what will happen to him?  His own karma, actually.  So that’s what you have to understand.  Hope I am clear in my opinion. 

Same Questioner:   Yes Babaji, yes.  I had a doubt.  Thank You very much.  Namaskar. 

Babaji Maharaj:   My blessing.  You’re welcome. 

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  You have mentioned, based on our intensity of thoughts in this present birth the next incarnation or next birth happens.  So, that means whatever is being played out in this birth is the carryover of the previous birth’s resolution and thoughts and intensities? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, the mind carries, you know?  And that’s what we also call as ‘acquired habits of the mind’.  That is carried further.  The mind does not die.  The brain dies, but the mind gets detached from the brain’s reflections.  At that time, whatever intensity of thoughts and its spins, it assumes its next incarnation, next body.  And it would have forgotten its previous things, but like a symptom, the inclination or the habits of the mind continue.  That’s what we sometimes call as a basic nature of a person.  Like I have told many times, if parents have two or three different children, they try to look after all children equally.  Yet, different children may pick up different attitude, temperamental attitudes, etc. because they are bringing a basic nature, plus what they are going to acquire in the present life.  So, it all depends.  It is like that; mind-boggling things, it’s a long thing that happens. 

Same Questioner:   Thanks, Babaji.  Pranaams.

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  Today is my first day attending this meditation, and I’m very happy that it has happened on Vijayadashami day.   My question is, does this meditation in Your presence serve as initiation, or is there a separate initiation for this meditation?

Babaji Maharaj:   No, this meditation itself you can consider, when I instructed in the beginning – that you can consider as the initiation.  Finally, it is your faith and your adoption in the mind that will work for you.  It can work wonders when you have that faith and devotion.  Then you carry on if you have understood the methods.  So, there are other things.  Every week also we conduct; you can participate.  And also we have an app, ‘Shri Babaji’ which is free to download.  So, in that also, in my voice I have instructed.  So, listening to that you can practice.  So, this itself you can consider as an initiation.  Maybe sometimes whenever it’s possible for you to come in front of us, then you might be able to sit again.  But till then, you can continue with this. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji.

End of Session