0:00 Introduction
0:19 Can Babaji please explain what is meant by, “Man exists as the immortal which is beyond the birth and death of the physical body.”? 4:36 How does Parabrahma relate to the concepts of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and to us?
8:36 What does it mean for the droplet of the mind becomes one with the ocean of the Self?
13:42 Is it correct to say that our imagination is the culprit that holds us back from discovering our True Self?
20:12 How do we become strong enough to become the master and not the servant to our brain’s refections?
28:40 Experiences of body jerks during meditation.
30:03 After death does our consciousness remain awake in the same way that it does in the real world?
33:33 How do we know if a judgment we make is from the brain’s reflection or from us using or commanding the brain?
35:01 Once mind and body gets separated, how is that soul recognised?
37:18 Can the jeevatma comprehend the absolute?
38:29 Do evil spirits exist or is it an imagination from the mind?
40:56 What are the signs that our worldly desires are gradually ending?

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji – online Q and A No. 162
The True Meaning of Yoga – Part 2
Recorded: 18 January 2024 with worldwide participants

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Thank You Babaji for this satsang session.  We will continue with our questions on the true meaning of yoga.  Can Babaji please explain what is meant by “Man exists as the immortal, which is beyond birth and death of the physical body.”  And that ignorance which is the cause of suffering will be removed? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, all humans generally think or consider or are aware of their personality, their existence as the physical body.  That “I am a human, I am an American, I am English, I am an Indian, I am a Malaysian,” like that and so many personalities.  But actually, one is beyond the birth and death of this physical body.  Body is born, it is going to die inevitably one day.  But we will exist as the eternal entity recognized as soul, the atman.  So, that’s what I have always tried to tell.  But to become aware of this, if you meditate, because just now your mind or you are preoccupied with your own imaginations too much, more than necessary even.  That is why you are unaware of your real Self.  Consciously, you are not aware of yourself.  Consciously, you are aware of the body.  Consciousness of yours has shifted to the body so much that you are always aware of the body as yourself.  When the body dies, you consider that you are going to die; the body is born, you start thinking that you are born.  So, that is the reason for the ignorance about the Self, means the consciousness preoccupied with its own imaginations.  Like too much preoccupied with watching the movie, you forget that you are sitting and watching also; you identify yourself in the movie and everything happening in the movie appears to be happening to you.  So, like that.  So, if you meditate – meditation is taught so that you can silence your mind.  You become quiet.  Your chatterbox habits need to be reduced and brought down to nil if you want to know about yourself. Then, as I speak about the consciousness and energy combinations, the mind also, and you also; whether it is the mind or you it is the same.  Means if I tell ‘your mind’ is made up of consciousness and energy, is also the same, or ‘you’ are made up of consciousness and energy.  Energy, you all understand.  But consciousness means wherever you apply you become aware of that existence.  Otherwise, if you don’t apply anywhere else, you just exist peacefully.  Peacefully: point to be noted.  You have that contentment and peace; you will realize that you don’t need anything for your existence.  Not of the physical body I am talking, your real existence.  So, that’s how you will become aware when you practice meditation regularly, understanding the technique in the right sense and sincerely following that technique.  ‘Watch’ means ‘just watch’ – nothing else to do. Then things will happen.  So, that’s what I meant in you are much beyond the existence of the physical body or its birth and death. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  I will go to the next question.  Babaji spoke on the concept of Parabrahma who exists in supreme stillness in peace and has no imagination.  How does it relate to the concept of Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwara that Babaji has spoken of, and how does it relate to us Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   Parabrahma is one of the most ancient terminologies used by great sages of Rigvedic era when they realized the Ultimate Truth, when they become aware of the Ultimate Truth.  Means, ‘That is’; they also call it as ‘That’, Tatva, or ‘That which is beyond all imaginations’ – that is Parabrahma, that is the Ultimate Truth. 

   Now, Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara concepts. Swamiji used to tell – an enormous amount of consciousness arose to create. As it had the power of creating, it started creating.  The thing, the concept, the consciousness which created came to be known as Brahma and the concept which protected that consciousness creation came to be known as Vishnu.  And withdrawal back to the Self of this created substance, withdrawing force is known as Shiva.  Means they are all same – functioning difference.  So, that is why they are known as different names.  They are not different things.  These three are considered as Trinity, Trimurthies, three divine concepts of Bharatiya philosophy, Hindu philosophy, ancient philosophy of India.  That’s why these are considered as divine personalities only, equivalent to Parabrahma, Divine, nothing less than that.  In bhakti marga when people worship, they can worship all these three.  Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, any form you can worship, it will be as equivalent as you worshiping Parabrahma.  Because these concepts – when they created or protected or withdrawal time, they did not get involved with the creation as a reality.  They were not insecure, they did not need anything, they didn’t have any desires at all.  They simply existed in itself.  Thus, they came to be known as divine, Trimurthies, Trinity.  So, that is the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva concept. 

   Shiva also means your existence in total thoughtlessness state, when the Self, you, the mind or the individual, imagined self goes back to the Parabrahman eventually.  So, that is Shiva.  In between as it is becoming quiet and quiet and quiet totally, so it starts merging with the Ultimate Truth, Parabrahman.  So, that quietening is the Shiva concept.  That’s how the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva Trinity has come into existence in the philosophical teachings. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Babaji explained that when the droplet of the mind becomes one with the ocean of the Self, the imagined individuality which never really existed vanishes and your Eternal Existence is revealed.  What does this mean, Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   This is what is known as illusion.  Illusion means a thing which never existed, it appeared to be existing because you visualized or you imagined in that way about yourself.  I have tried to call it ‘individual imagined self’.  Though the ancient teachers have tried to call it as jivatama and paramatma, just to differentiate in the bhakti marga teachings of dvaita philosophy, like that.  So, I just tried to call it individual imagined existence or self which never existed. Because you are continuously consistently imagining and you have got so carried away, you appear to be existing in that form which you have imagined, whereas you do not exist in that way.  Your existence is far beyond, much beyond as the Ultimate Truth.  So, this also I have tried to call it as a droplet.  If this individual imagined self or mind or the jivatama, if we can recognize that as a droplet of the ocean, this droplet’s ocean is recognized as Divinity, the Ultimate Truth.  Like, I have also told in my talks, if your mind is a droplet, that mind’s Ultimate Truth is what is recognized as God or Divinity.  So, imagine how infinite the mind is; nobody has seen it in naked eyes, yet you recognize depending on the thoughts and visions that you have.  You recognize based on that “My mind wants to do this; I want to do this.”  Both are same; “I want to do” or “My mind wants to do” is all the same.  Simply, temporarily, you identify when it is into thinking, yourself, you call it as your mind.  Your mind and you all are same. Because you are so preoccupied with your mind or your own imagination, you have forgotten your real Self as the ocean, you are thinking you are only a droplet.  Means, whatever you are able to imagine or think, it is only a capacity of the droplet; that is what it is.  So, when you give up this imagination, this droplet which never existed merges with the Self.  Means dissolves with the Self, that is the Ultimate Truth, Parabrahman – only one Divinity exists.  That is what the shloka of ‘Purnamada Purnamidam Purnath Purnamudhachyate’.  They are calling this appearance of the universe which is also the form of absolute because it is within and has come out of that Absolute only.  And this Purna, absoluteness has come out of that Absoluteness which is the Ultimate Truth.  And when this absolute called this world will dissolve, will not be there, what remains is that Absoluteness, that Parabrahman, that Ultimate Truth.  That is what the shloka’s ‘Purnasya Purnamadaaya Purnameva Avasishyate’. When this Purna – this Purna means absoluteness -dissolves into that Absoluteness, what remains is also that Absoluteness.  So, like that this shloka is told.  So, this appearance really never exists.  But because we are visualizing, that is why it appears to be existing.  This you will realize only in deep samadhi called nirvikalpa samadhi, or just before that samadhi you will understand.  And then when the merger happens, there is nothing to understand, everything stops; one single Self exists.  

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  Babaji, the next question.  Our sins can be washed away when we become silent and go back into ourselves.  Babaji also mentioned that when our imagination takes us out of ourselves, we forget ourselves and are therefore committing a sin, a grave mistake.  Babaji, is it correct for us to say that our imagination is the culprit that holds us back from discovering our true Self?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, exactly.  I would like to quote Adi Shankara’s teachings here talking about the satvik, rajasic, and tamasic swabhava of ourselves, or our mind, whatever it is.  Swabhava means nature, means it’s like good, bad and ugly.  Like for example, you want to go out of your house and you can go out also.  That is considered a satvik quality because you have the ability to go out of the home.  But you need to come back.  If you don’t come back, then you start considering whatever is outside, that as your home, and you forget, slowly you are forgetting about your real home; you don’t want to return to your actual home.  You want to go around.  That is rajasic swabhava.  Rajasic means a little bit of arrogance filled.  A king always will have that arrogance.  “I tell and that it is.  Anything I want to do I will do it.  I want to cut the tree, I will cut the tree.”  Like that, they start thinking the rajasic swabhava.  The tamasic, when you totally forget about your real Self that it is there, and you become so miserable in the forest called this world, this universe.  Giving a symbolic example of an aranya, forest, they call it, you lose your way and you aimlessly keep wandering, wandering and forget, you become so miserable.  This is the tamasic, the ugliest.  That means here you see, going out, thinking something in your mind is not a problem – that is a satvik ability, means creativity.  You have creativity in you, that is an ability.  But if whatever you imagine, if you start thinking that as the right thing, that is the rajasic, darpa, arrogance.  Because of arrogance, you consider your imagination as the truth.  There is a friend and you think that friend is a foe; that person will appear to you as a foe.  It is actually a foe, but you think that it is a friend; that person would appear to you as a friend, psychologically, because you are thinking; that is the rajasic nature of you.  Now as you go on imagining, you forget that you are imagining, you forget that you need to become quiet and you have forgotten about your real Self, but you are miserable.  You don’t know the path.  So that is tamasic.  Sins means here, when you meditate, if you remember the Divinity, Parabrahman, all your sins and unhappiness can be washed away, what Gayatri mantra talks; ‘bhargo devasya dhee mahi’, these words.  Here, sins means not what the world has adopted, human beings adopted, “O this is a sin, this is a sin.”   Often, these things become mingled with selfishness and narrow-mindedness.  People try to set one set of justice for themselves, another set of justice for others.  And that is not actually sin, what we are talking here.  Any imagination in you, in your consciousness which keeps you away from your real Self in illusion or in consciousness, is to be considered sin; sin means ‘grave mistake’.  So, thus, you are creating an ugly situation for yourself.  You have forgotten about yourself, you don’t know where to go, what to do to achieve; you are looking for that peace which you had enjoyed by remaining in the Self.  That means thus, you have created an ugly situation for yourself in this world and you are miserable.  So, that’s when you need a Master, your Guru, a teacher who has the knowledge, awareness of the real Truth.  So, you need to sit with Him and learn.  So, that’s what the thing we keep teaching, that if you meditate you can overcome all unhappiness and sins once for all. You will regain the awareness of your real Self and you regain that Supreme Peace.  Vashista talking to Sri Rama tells, “Once you realize about your real Self, you become aware of your real Self,  as long as the body exists, with total blissfulness, Supreme Peace you move on this earth, unmindful of what happens, what does not happen.  You are okay with any situation.”  Like that, He advises in his Yoga Vashista.  So, that is why this meditation is taught so that one time you can achieve and overcome all sins and mistakes. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  The next question, Babaji.  We have become a victim of our own weaknesses where we have become too attached to the brain’s reflections and are therefore unable to control ourselves. 

   How do we become strong enough to be able to become the master and not the servant of the brain’s reflections?

   Is it our ego or our own karma that causes us to become judgmental? What spiritual practices can we adopt to prevent us from being judgmental?

Babaji Maharaj:   Definitely. By our own imaginations, by forgetting our real Self, we have become miserable.  Means, we have given rise to our weakness.  Our own imagination has become our weakness because that is the reason that we have forgotten and that is the reason we are miserable, we are unhappy.  That means that is our weakness now.  The brain and the mind, peculiar relationship also I have spoken.  The brain has given us consciousness of this world, this universe, our physical body’s consciousness, this universe.  We receive messages through the nervous system and the brain receives messages and the brain passes an order also.  So, in that process it reflects whatever it receives.  Now the mind consciousness gets drawn to these reflections.  So, if we consider this as the fundamental reality, simply take it in good faith, that means brain is becoming our master and we are becoming a victim or a servant of our brains.  Instead, we should be able to understand, what the brain is giving is only an imagination.  Temporarily, we might need it to live in this world, to behave in this world. But to live in this world also, we need to apply proper wisdom.  In your computer science often, when you think, certain thing you write or you code, that needs to be verified, right?  Like that here also, in your wisdom, in your consciousness, you should be able to wait and see, verify properly, not simply take it at face value.  That is the general saying, you see? “That person takes everything in face value.  Whatever you tell him he believes and he starts acting upon that.”  We don’t have to be in such a rush to make judgments.  That’s how here we are coming to be non-judgmental.  Whereas in this world, two different things are there.  Whereas one side we try to tell “Remain non-judgmental so that you have peace”.  But at the same time, people might wonder, “We need to make judgments to live in this world.”  Making a judgment itself is not wrong – that is an important thing I am going to tell now.  But if you do a wrong judgment, it is wrong.  This wrong judgement from you happens if you don’t have proper wisdom, if you take it in good faith.  The best example I have been telling recently, you have a servant and you are lying in the bed.  Somebody knocks on the door and you send your servant, “Go and see who has come.”  After some time the servant comes and tells, “There was one of your friends who wanted to see you.  I just refused, asked him to get out.”  If you keep quiet, you see? The servant’s job was just to come back and inform you such and such a person has come.  It was you who should have decided whether you want to meet or don’t want to meet.  Instead, the servant decided that you are not going to meet that person and sent him away.  That means the servant is trying to become the master and as the master, you are a victim of your servant’s shrewdness. 

So, like that, it is a combination, relationship between us and our brain.  We should be using the brain.  That is what is known as application of wisdom.  If the brain uses us, there is no wisdom.  It might give a knowledge, but it doesn’t give wisdom, it simply dictates terms; “This is it, you have to do like that.”  So, that’s what happens, you see?  When you feel hungry in the stomach, the brain reflects.  Then you have to use your wisdom.  It is necessary that you need to have some food so that you can sustain the physical body.  For some time, sometimes you may need to wait before having food, and you also need to exercise wisdom what type of food that you need to have.  That food should not spoil your physical health.  Otherwise, the very life gets disturbed for you.  So, you need to apply your wisdom there.  So, these things are possible when you practice spiritual exercises.  One of the highest is meditation of course.  Other exercises are bhakti marga also, worshipping the Divinity, chants, music and so on.  Participating in homa karma, everything like this.  So, then gradually you are able to control your mind.  You don’t give it to go out of control.  You don’t allow it to go on imagining and making judgments as it wants.  You will wait and see always.  You are not in a rush to make a judgment.  Those people who try to boast that they can judge immediately, often they become prejudicial.  You can see in life, in society.  They misjudge and try to create such circumstances of conflicts unnecessarily; a big conflict happens.  One starts fighting with the other, one misunderstands the other and there is a big huge conflict arising.  These types of things happen.  Sometimes countries also fight, go into conflict if there are misunderstandings.  So, both are unable to live peacefully.  This happens.  So, that is what we need to avoid, need to be careful.  This becomes possible for us if we practice spiritual sadhana.  Meditation is one such great thing that our Guru recommended, we also recommend.  But generally, He wanted to talk spiritual sadhana.  He did not insist only meditation.  Bhakti marga also can be very helpful.  Any chants, singing of bhajans, these types of things – sincerely participate when you do also.  Some, few people, five or six people as a group, they keep doing bhajans, all other people keep gossiping around.  They don’t listen peacefully those bhajans also.  We have seen many times.  So, such people will not benefit from such satsang bhajans.  When there are chants everybody should concentrate.  Either you should be able to chant along or you should concentrate and remain peaceful, then your mind becomes purified.  So, doing an exercise, understanding the right technique sincerely is very important.  Otherwise, simply forty years you might meditate and no change happens in you, no wisdom comes to you.  No humility comes to you.  And you remain the same arrogant personality.  So, that’s what happens. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji. There is a question in the chat, Babaji – can I read? Hari Om Babaji, during meditation sometimes I will experience my body jerks up and jerks out.  Why does this happen, Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   Because you are not used to sitting quietly.  Often, if you see people, they are used to talking and they are used to keep moving when sitting also.  In the stillness, it’s a bit difficult, it requires some practice.  But now, if you sincerely practice to concentrate the mind on to one point – if possible in between eyebrows or at least using the eyeballs just to see the front portion – try to become more concentrated, then your body becomes still automatically, it won’t move easily.  So, thus, you have to practice, more practice; try to sit down to a wall if necessary, and sincerely practice meditation.  Take care that you don’t fall asleep, then it will be all right after some time. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji. There is another question. Babaji, please clarify, after death does our consciousness remain awake in the same way as it remains in the physical world?  From birth till the age of three years, our consciousness is not remembered. 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, this consciousness of the world depends on the brain.  Like once death happens, that means brain dies.  When brain dies, you lose consciousness of this world.  But you as the mind will be carrying habits of attitude and thinking habits, desires, all these things.  That forms the intensity of thoughts, then the mind spins.  Based on those intensity of thoughts, it assumes next birth.  First point, with the assumption of the next birth, it would have forgotten everything of the previous birth, because with the brain all memory is lost.  In the very early childhood, in the womb, as soon as you are born, until the brain develops better and better and better, you would not remember any such things.  Once you have become aware a little bit, then when you have practiced or if you have keenly watched, such things you would remember of your childhood, of your studies in the primary school, like that, whatever you would have tried to learn, that would have come very easily because your mind was not exposed to the outside world.  As the brain grows and grows, it gets exposed to the outside world.  And its imagining power also increases, and the mind also gets involved into such imaginations.  Thus, it gets exposed to the outside world.  It is unable to remain fully concentrated or a purified state.  So, that is when it becomes aware of that world in that life.  That is how it happens.  Till then, it will not be aware.  Brain has to be well-developed, and it has to grow, it has to develop.  As the age grows, the brain grows.  Otherwise, when you are born, just born, one-day baby, you may not remember.  Your mother might remember what you were doing.  You may not remember because your brain was not that grown at that time, it was just small.  Slowly, slowly as you gained consciousness, you started seeing, you saw, considered mother, started calling her mother when you would have been taught, “Call Ma; this is mother, this is father, this is mom, this is dad.”  And then when that mom would have loved and cared for you, then you’d have felt slowly so secure, the baby feels secure and happy, at peace.  So, that is how the mother-child relationship picks up.  Many things the child may not remember, but it simply becomes attached to the mother, automatically.  So, that is how things happen. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  There is another question in the chat, Babaji. Babaji mentioned that the judgment is wrong if it is a judgment from the brain’s reflections.  How do we know if a judgment we make is from the brain’s reflection or from us using or commanding the brain?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, important, when you try to make a judgment, your mind must not go into an abrupt decision or must not be confused.  It should be at peace, composed, must have patience and purified.  Then your judgment will be better.  Means, slowly you will learn to see, you will have a practical approach, learn to see a larger cause, all these qualities will come.  You will not be selfish and narrow-minded; you will not simply be prejudicial.  So, these things you can overcome if your mind is purified, if it is not confused, if it has peace. And that is when you will be able to do a better judgment. 

Babaji Maharaj: Here is one question, a person who is sitting here – you can ask.

Question:   Being is recognized by naama and roopa.  Whereas, once the mind and the body get separated, that is soul leaves the body, the body becomes a dead body.  How is that soul recognized?

Babaji Maharaj:   Actually, nobody can recognize that soul.  Simply, there are so much of mythical explanations there, thinkings are there.  You see, as long as the soul is in the body, you have the name of like Ramesh and this formation is there.  Once this body falls dead, what happens to that soul also everybody doesn’t know.  There are so many speculations there.  Where it goes or whether it remains there or whether it spins, imagines another thing, nobody can track it.  With the end of the body, actually that name, that form, that personality, everything ends.  Whatever it assumes in its next birth, that personality, that world, it’s a very mind-boggling illusion. 

Same questioner: So there is a transition?

Babaji Maharaj: There is not much time there in the transition.  Instantly it assumes actually, the main consciousness which we call it as soul, it assumes.  There is no such… in the transition, whatever if it is there a little bit, at the time it is unconscious.  It doesn’t remember anything.  It is just like, to make a surgery on your body you are given anesthesia and then afterwards you come out of the anesthesia.  So in between, you are unconscious.  You don’t know what was happening.  Some surgery was happening on your body.  Like that, if at all, for some time it takes, so it will be totally unconscious because as long as there is no body, no brain, it cannot be conscious of any world. 

Same questioner:   When this jivatma merges with the Paramatma, this jivatma, can it really comprehend that totalness or completeness?

Babaji Maharaj:   It really doesn’t happen.  It becomes one with the Absolute.  When the jivatma becomes one with the Absolute, there is nothing to comprehend.  The Ocean is there.  The ocean visualizes the droplet, and the droplet visualizes the ocean.  Once the droplet falls into the ocean, the ocean doesn’t think that it is ocean, and there is no droplet at all.  Simply exists in itself.  That’s what happens.  That is what is known as mahasamadhi. In total Absoluteness that existence is there, and it is supremely peaceful because no imagination, nothing is there. 

Question:   Namaste Babaji.  I am in contact with a person who is saying that she suffers from an evil spirit.  She says that spirit is making her suffer a lot and dictating her life.  So, do such things really exist – I don’t know how to help her – or is it just an imagination from the mind?

Babaji Maharaj:   It is an imagination from the mind.  The more she imagines, she starts experiencing as if that is the truth.  And with that imagination only, she suffers.  Whereas, she doesn’t have to suffer anything at all, because nothing exists; only one single Self exists.  If only she can become more spiritual, more spiritual, and practice spiritual sadhanas, that can be helpful.  You can try to talk to her if she listens to you, if she understands.  But sometimes what happens, one alertness, these people when they would have been disillusioned with this imagination, they will refuse to accept the truth.  They will tell that they are being troubled and you don’t understand them.  It may be necessary sometime, just as a psychological teaching, that you tell that you understand that she is being troubled, she is miserable, that you can help her.  Instead of talking whether the spirits exist or does not exist, either way you don’t have to talk.  So, you just try to meditate, worship God, then you can overcome whatever spirits are troubling you and you will have peace.  Like that only you have to try to teach her and help her.  If she at least considers you a friend and listens to you, then she can overcome by practicing some sadhana like meditation. 

Question:   Babaji, there is one more question from the chat. The question is, what does the signs say that our worldly desires are gradually ending? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You will not be greedy, you will just use this world, anything you need to earn or take, only for the need.  And even when it comes to you, you would like to distribute to others also.  You will not be selfish and narrow-minded.  So, that is how you will be able to live.  You will always earn for the need and you will help others also.  That is how you will be if you practice meditation.  So, gradually, all your greediness will decrease.  Means it is the simple example that our Master used to give.  “You have twelve bananas, you won’t like to eat all the bananas, you will not be greedy, you would like to distribute some bananas to others and only a few you might keep for yourself.”  Like that you will become, automatically. 

Facilitator:   Thank You Babaji. 

End of Questions and Answers

Babaji Maharaj now concludes the session.

Wonderful, I will just have a gallery view and to say bye-bye to all of you.  It was wonderful being with all of you this evening, helping you to meditate. Bless you all.  So, it is time to disappear.  May you all be blessed by Swamiji.  Our love and blessings.  Take care. 

End of Session