0:00 Intro
0:17 How can this world, which seems so real, be an illusion?
6:39 What does Babaji mean by ‘existence value’?
13:41 Science says that we should be able to measure anything that is real. But Babaji says that the one thing that is real is the one thing we cannot measure?
17:37 Should we be trying to stop the illusion or stop believing in the illusion?
22:22 Does my illusion belong only to me or is the universe one shared illusion experienced differently by each of us?
23:53 What does the story of the three princes from the Yoga Vasistha illustrate?
26:26 If a Yogi has woken up from this illusion, does the world still exist for the Yogi?
28:00 How should one treat relationships with other people within this illusion?
30:38 Babaji said that it is the mind only that can recognise the parabrahman. Is this because the mind is part of the parabrahman?
31:14 Is it because we have clouded the mind with imaginations that we cannot see the parabrahman?
32:19 How can our subjective experience in this body become universal?

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji – online Q and A No. 100
The Illusion
Recorded: 18 June 2022 with worldwide participants

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   How can this world which seems so real be an illusion?

Babaji Maharaj:   You have to pay attention; some clues and some points I will tell now. Because you have illusioned yourself into this illusion called world. So, you are a part of this. Just like when you are dreaming, as long as you are a part of the dream, you won’t be able to make out that is a dream. It would appear as real. Only when you come out of the dream you can make out, “I was dreaming. The dream was there.” In the same way just now, see your mind. Your mind has taken the reflection of this appearance, the world’s appearance, and this world in turn has shown its appearance because of your mind imagining, your consciousness imagining in that way. As a person goes towards deeper into the samadhi, slowly first the I called illusion dissolves, goes on dissolving. As it starts dissolving, you will see the appearance of the world also dissolving equally. It is something like there is a mirror and inside the mirror your reflection is there; you are also sitting. As you slowly remove skillfully the mirror, you will see that you also vanish that you are that one in the mirror, and that reflection also disappears. Mirror also disappears and reflection also disappears, then you will realize only your own reflection was there. So in the same way, this world is there. However, in arguments and in talking logically, it may not be able to prove just now. Just now what we have to take the world as an illusion means it is temporary. Even if you observe everything is temporary, impermanent; it is there and it’s going to dissolve in due course of time, here, now. So, like this, our body is there. And in due course of time this body will dissolve. In the same way every object, every appearance of this world has its own time limit. One might have hundred years and one might have thousand years, another 10,000 years, like mountain and an ocean, many of the stars and this earth itself has its own time limit. So like that it goes long and long. At least this much we can understand it is impermanent.

So that is why it is called illusion. A certain thing which is impermanent, how can it give us a permanent happiness? Any equivalent things only give happiness, means the thing that you can touch. Like the matter of this world might give a temporary happiness because it is temporary, it is not permanent. Today the body in which we are considering ourselves as the dwellers, this body can touch the matter and might be able to enjoy for a while. But unfortunately it is impermanent. If the world was permanent, our body was permanent, then there was no problem. We would have had the permanent happiness by remaining in the world, by having any object that we wanted, but that doesn’t happen. That is the illusion.

   Illusion first makes us believe that we are going to get happiness. And soon we realize that things are impermanent. Our own body – this body which we are considering as ‘us’, ‘me’, ‘me’, ‘me’ – one day soon it will die. That’s what the ‘dissolve’ means. When it dies, we are not conscious of this world. And our own personalities, everything dissolves. So like this, this is just a small glimpse of clue what I’m telling about illusion. It’s very mind-boggling if we go on explaining. Appearance of this huge universe, imagine, in the space, such a thrillful illusion has happened. It simply, it’s a reflection. So, behind all this, the Parabrahman, the Divinity is there.

Though it is there, it doesn’t appear to be there, because it is permanent. All the impermanent things have been made to appear, because our own body is impermanent. So it cannot view the permanent one through these naked eyes; these naked eyes don’t have the power to view the permanent entities. That’s how the Divine is hidden behind. So now we have to go through our own mind to have a view of the Divinity, Parabrahman, that is. Prarabrahman means the one beyond all imaginations which cannot be imagined and understood by intelligence; it’s beyond that one. So like this, the illusion things go on and on and on. It’s the world is illusion. At least simple way everybody try to understand – it is impermanent.

Question:   What does Babaji mean by existence value?

Babaji Maharaj:   For this in Yoga Vashista, Vashista taught “It is there and it is not there.” That is His language. I tried to explain in a slightly simpler way – it is there but appears not to be there. Like the space. Space appears as if nothing is there, simply a void place – that’s what we recognize. But space is there. So, that’s how existence value, means that’s how the Divinity is recognized; that ultimate truth has substantial existence value. Whereas this world, universe, which has an appearance value, but doesn’t have the existence value actually, because it is impermanent, its shape is going to change; its shape is going to dissolve and become something else. That is also to make us fool ourselves that it is going to be there. Like this body, if it’s put on the funeral pyre, it will become a handful of ashes. But now it is solidly here with a white beard and talking all sorts of nonsense and sitting in front of you; becoming a Master and knowledge and wisdom, everything coming. When it goes to funeral pyre only these many ashes. “O this was the Babaji we used to see. See some bones and a little bit of ashes are all here, that’s all. Where is Babaji whom we were addressing ‘Babaji, Babaji, Babaji?’  Where is He?” Nobody can see. So that’s to tell that, in my opinion, this universe world has appearance value.

   It appears, just like Vashista talks about the dream; the dreaming is true, but the things of the dream are not true. The objects that appear in the dream are not truly there. But the appearance of an object is there, that is true. This could be a little bit confusing unless you pay attention and understand. He says that you dream every day or you might be dreaming. That dream appearance is true, but the things that are in that dream are not true. Any of the characters, any of the personalities, the stories that happen, objects that are all there; dreaming has only an appearance value, but not an existence value – permanently it’s not going to be there.

So that is the difference between appearance value and existence value that I try to talk. The same way this universe, world also has appearance value. It has appeared. You might say “I can see this one, how can you say it doesn’t exist?” It  has simply appearance value because it’s not going to exist like this all the time, permanently. That’s why it is to be considered it doesn’t have the existence value, but it has the appearance value. Our own body also doesn’t have the existence value, but this has the appearance value – this has appeared. You are seeing a Babaji in this body which has become old now – this has appeared to you. So that is what is the truth. But behind this, the true Babaji I am, has the existence value, but it doesn’t appear to be for you. Temporarily it has no appearance value, until and unless you don’t try to see through the same dimensional existence, that is your own mind, your consciousness. Your mind is made up of consciousness and energy, both are real existence value, but doesn’t appear easily to the naked eyes. That is what it has the existence value, but it may not have appearance value.

  So, through this mind, you can visualize and have the experience of that ultimate truth that is all pervaded, Divinity, what we call as Divinity. Only through the mind you can see. That’s why through the mind you can get connected. So that is why the Master teaches, “First remove the preoccupation of your mind from its own imaginations.” All the imaginations that are in the mind has appearance value, but does not have existence value, whereas you are believing it to be the existence value and you are totally engrossed into the appearance value. That appearance value’s attention must be removed by your mind.

So that is the meditation – just watch in between eyes, do not bother about any thoughts or visions that are coming. Let them come, but you don’t recognize; you don’t get involved into analytic things and making any judgments, “O this is it, this is it, this is it”; judgment. Like when your mind makes a judgment then it considers that to be true existence value, and it will never believe anybody else. So that is the real truth of this logic of existence value and appearance value. So once you remove the mind’s preoccupation with its own imagined things which have only appearance value, then the real existence value, Parabrahman, the Divinity, automatically appears. That mind can see the Divinity because they both belong to one dimension of existence value. That is infinite, what we call normally in this world. The terminology we use as infinite form. Got it, a little bit?

Question:   Science says that we should be able to measure anything that is real.  But Babaji says that the one thing that is real is the one thing we cannot measure?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, you see, scientifically also to see a certain thing you would need those dimensional powerful eyes. Like we call it the naked eyes in the body – many things are visible, but there are many things which exist but however is not visible to the naked eyes. So you cannot measure them just with your physical body. Then you have to invent; you have to build a machinery that which will have the capacity to see a distant star what you call telescopes, powerful telescopes and they claim a distant planet has become visible; a star has become visible. Like that they have seen it, so thus, they try to measure it in their own way. In the same way, though this existence value is there, the Parabrahman, to measure that you need an instrument equivalent to that infinity, then only you can measure.

So through your mind you can measure. When you try to measure you become one with it, you merge with it. It is unlimited. That is the reason you cannot measure with any limited telescopes or measuring tapes, impossible. This any scientist will also agree. With a certain thing which itself is limited, how can you measure the unlimited one? If you want to measure the unlimited one, you have to become unlimited yourself.

   So the space can definitely measure the space. It’s only you have to handle the space. If you handle the space, then you can measure the space. Or you build a telescope that is equivalent to space in length and breadth, then you can measure [laughs]. So they think for now, the things that which we cannot measure does not exist. Not necessary. It is only an assumption – just because I’m unable to measure, that means that thing might be mightier than what we all have visualized as human beings, we all have thought to be able to measure. So the space is mightier, much mightier than what we think that we can simply measure. Simply because we are unable to measure, we cannot tell that it doesn’t exists – it exists. And also, its features we don’t know because we are unable to measure, simply. That acceptance humans have to understand, because only individually one can get a glimpse of the ultimate Divinity. That is when we can understand all these things. Simply because we cannot measure a thing, we cannot understand that thing, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. This is my opinion.

Question:   Should we be trying to stop the illusion or stop believing in the illusion?

Babaji Maharaj:  When you stop the mind, you can stop the illusion; in the process, you understand everything about the illusion also. Because it is an individual experience, you may not be able to demonstrate. Even hundreds of things are there in science and technology which cannot be demonstrated. They declare that they came across a star in a distant place which they could visualize through a powerful telescope or giant telescope, whatever it is. The rest have to believe; all those who cannot see through the telescope will have to believe and have to have faith. Because they cannot demonstrate a star at a distant place to all humanity,  impossible. Only those who can see through the telescope can get to see the star. Can they show the star, “This is the star I have discovered, I had come across.” They cannot do that one. They present a paper. So everybody has their own language, their own belief, their own faith. So that particular community believes whatever through their community a person claims to have seen. If anybody tries to make fun of them, they will all make fun. Because I have seen through telescope, because you could not see through a telescope that’s why you are telling me it doesn’t exist. When you are sitting there, can you see the Milky Way, can you see sun, can you see the stars? Can you see even planets of our solar system? You need a telescopic help. Without that you cannot see. Simply because you cannot see, do you deny its existence? Now because the scientific community have accepted, it exists. And they say through the telescope – they will ask you “You also come and see through the telescope.” You refuse, you tell, “I want to see only through my naked eyes otherwise I don’t want to believe.” So in the same way I’m calling all of you to come and see through the telescope that you have, that is the consciousness. Come out of these illusionary eyes, close these eyes, remove all the imaginations, then you will find that mind. That mind is pure consciousness of existence, and that consciousness can see the consciousness that is all pervaded.

So that is the telescope you need to see through. So if you cannot see through that telescope… now you cannot see because you are preoccupied with imaginations. In the same way, you are preoccupied with your naked eyes, and whatever you are seeing you are ready to believe only that much, then you cannot see a certain thing through the telescope. So you say you don’t want to believe, a scientist will make fun of you. It is simply each other try to understand the logics properly and respect each other. Both science and spirituality goes for existence value, right? Just like, as you were telling, they have their own criteria – through whichever we can measure, then we accept the existence value. Here, as Adi Shankara, talks in Vivekachoodamani, “When you come face to face in your consciousness, and when that consciousness of yours is not into any type of imagination, know that existence as the truth.” Why? As long as you are into imagination, you will get to see only what you imagine. First you stop that imagination, then what you see is the truth. So that is the science; spirituality also is the science. So, if all humanity, all educated people, whoever thinks they are educated, if they think in the right direction, seeing God is not difficult.

Question:   Does my illusion belong only to me or is the universe one share illusion experienced differently by each of us?

Babaji Maharaj:   By practice of meditation, first you need to overcome the illusion that there is a ‘you’ illusion, there is a ‘me’ illusion or other illusion. There is no such thing of you, me and other – there is only one illusion. Temporarily, it appears to be for you that there are so many with their own illusions which really nothing exists. Only one single Self exists. Because of the brain’s reflections and your own visualizations, you are thinking that you have your own illusion, other have their own illusion. Once you overcome your own illusion, you will see that there nobody else is there and no other illusion exists. Only the single Self exists. What I’m talking, you may not be able to digest this truth just now. You need to go deeper into meditation, overcome all imaginations, then you will experience. So you have to go to the telescope called your own consciousness, your own mind. That is what I experienced through. That’s why I firmly I can say this is my opinion. I stand by what I talk.

Question:   What does the story of the three princes from the Yoga Vashista illustrate?

Babaji Maharaj:   I don’t remember the full story that I read in the book. I just will talk for sake of conveying the essence of what it is. Vashista talks, ‘They were three princes who are never born. And those princes, they built fortress, which didn’t have any walls at all’, like that He talks. ‘And they were going, they took the earthen pitchers, pots which didn’t have any body at all. And they tried to fill up water from a river which didn’t have any water.’  So the essence of the story is just to tell, illusion. As I was explaining, we tend to believe a certain thing which really does not exist and we don’t want to understand a certain thing which really exists. Because we have developed our own criteria. Just now, as you told in science, whatever they can measure, it will be able to measure provided they have a bigger measuring instrument. A space can be measured, provided you try to invent a bigger measuring tape which is bigger than the space. Till then you cannot measure – that you have to accept. Simply because you don’t have the measuring tape big enough like the space, you cannot deny the existence of the space. Just because you cannot measure just now. Just now you cannot measure because you don’t have the measuring tape enough to measure the space. Is not this a truth? All of you sitting think in your mind, all of you become scientists and just try to think what I’m saying. Simply because I don’t have an aeroplane, I cannot deny the existence of the aeroplane. So that is the logic one has to understand. To tell this illusion only, Vasistha talks of this story.

Question:   If a yogi has woken up from this illusion, does the world still exist for the yogi?

Babaji Maharaj:   As I told, appearance value will be there. But the real existence value is not there. That’s what a yogi has experienced. Because when I tell I am a yogi, you will visualize this body as a yogi – “will this body be seeing this world, will this body be thinking about anything” – like that you cannot think beyond that. Your thinking also is limited. And you cannot visualize beyond, beyond this body what a yogi is. When Babaji says “I am a yogi, what does He mean?” You cannot visualize also, you cannot imagine also what it is. So then appearance, the appearance of this body itself, we have experienced that this doesn’t have the existence value. So this world also doesn’t have the existence value. But when you see this body, it would appear it is also moving in the world, it is also eating, it is also talking, it is sitting, it will stand up. That is all you can see. Based on that you will try to measure in your own way, which is not true. So, none of you know whether for a yogi this world exists or doesn’t exist. Only the yogi knows.

Question:   How should one treat relationships with other people within this illusion?

Babaji Maharaj:  I will try to talk but it could be mind-boggling, not easy to understand. Everything is in the mind. So whatever the mind believes that becomes the truth. Since our childhood, we learn to call a father and mother. Suppose if our own parents were not there, and we were brought up by somebody else, and we do not know, we would have called them also father and mother. If nobody had told us “this is not your parent and that your parents died”, we would have never known. That’s what happens. So unless somebody tells us, we won’t know. Till then, finally we don’t know what the truth is. Because the moment when we came out of our mother, we didn’t have any consciousness at all. Only after that when the consciousness came, we all started thinking “This is mom, this is dad, this is brother, this is sister.” Like this, the entire universe system depends on our mental assumption. Whatever we assume, we firmly believe. And then we have other methods evolved like DNA or anything might be there, blood and so and so, be there. But everything we will have to believe somebody. We get to see in a movie story somebody, a doctor gives a wrong report by taking some bribe and the DNA doesn’t match as he says. But finally the DNA matches for the hero and hero’s mother. Same thing can happen in this world also. So, anything it could be. Just for sake of understanding I’m telling. I do not deny anything. So everything simply depends on a faith system, if you use your intelligence also. We have to believe somebody telling us even whether it is DNA matching or the blood matching, anything; when the forensic expert or somebody tells us, we have to believe that. We ourselves may not have that knowledge of that system. So finally, all these on the faith system, when we know our results, we finally understand then everything dissolves, all imagined things.

Question:   Babaji said that it is the mind only that can recognize the Parabrahman.  Is this because the mind is part of the Parabrahman?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, that’s what it is. It is made up of the same stuff or what you call same dimension, something, any terminology understandable is okay. It is the same thing, it belongs to the same. Like the matter touches the matter; this body also belongs to the matter world. So, this can touch the matter. But the mind really cannot touch; it has to imagine as if it is eating a fruit, but it doesn’t eat anything, mind.

Question:   Is it because we have clouded the mind with imaginations that we cannot see the Parabrahman?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, so mind is too preoccupied with its own imagination. So it cannot see anything else. When you are totally engrossed, absorbed into a certain imagination, you won’t notice who is sitting next to you, who is behind you, like that, you see? And that a food might have been kept in front of you; you won’t even notice if you are so absorbed in your own imagination. So imagine the amount of illusions that the mind is holding since time immemorial. So, it is preoccupied with that one so much, that it cannot see the Parabrahman in front. Thus, here, a certain thing which is all pervaded, how can it escape our view? Simply we don’t know what it is. That’s why it has escaped temporarily. Once you come to know about it, purify your mind, then the mind becomes aware of the truth of Parabrahman, you will know that one.

Question:   How can our subjective experience in this body become universal?

Babaji Maharaj:   Though you are all pervaded, you have subjected yourself and limited yourself into this body, and you are firmly into that illusion. So that is why the individualities appear. To overcome this, you have to overcome the imagination of the mind. That is what is the effect of meditation when we asked you to just watch in between eyebrows. The basic idea is slowly to overcome the illusion that your consciousness, you as the consciousness is undergoing through all imaginations and through which you have acquired habits since time immemorial. So only when you overcome this effect, then you will experience yourself beyond this body. That’s why we tell you are much more beyond the birth and death of this physical body. You meditate, then you will know. It’s only an individual experience. Through that only you can know that one.

End of Questions and Answers

End of Session