Recorded on 2 February 2024 with Malaysian participants.

0:00 Introduction
0:22 What does Babaji mean by ‘the secrets of your own existence’?
5:08 What is the best attitude to take when dealing with all the religions and teachings around us?
15:48 What is the significance of worshiping a stone idol and how to respond to criticism of the practice?
27:05 Are we living in a make-believe world if we do not know our Real Self?
37:16 In regards to divine guidance, at what point do we realise that the decision we take is guided by god?

Religion and Spirituality Pt2 | In Quest of Truth – Q&A, No.166

YouTube link: https://youtu.be/wqsuztsZaaY
Recorded on 2 February 2024 with Malaysian participants

Questioner:  Pranam, Babaji, thank you very much. I will share the screen on the questions. Babaji, the topic today is in relation to religion and spirituality. In one of Babaji’s talks previously, Babaji has mentioned, through the mind, apart from knowing the secrets of the mind, you can know the secrets of your own existence, the ‘I’. Babaji, can you please elaborate further on this statement? What do you mean by the statement “secrets of your own existence”? Does this include knowing about our past lives?

Shri Babaji:  Not about past lives. That is not needed, actually. What is more important is to know what you are now. But just now, generally, humans and everybody is preoccupied with their mind’s imaginations. Mind is fully like a chatterbox for twenty-four hours. It keeps imagining, visualizing, and visions, thoughts, stories, characters, everything keeps appearing in the mind. So thus, that mind is unable to pay attention to itself. ‘Secrets revealed’ means the secrets of the ‘I’; the mind itself is revealed. How? So, when you pay attention, it is there. So, when you are able to observe, then you get to know. But instead of observing, if you are into imaginations, all the time thoughts and visions are there, and you are aware of only those thoughts and visions, the imagination that is in the mind. So, the meditation’s technique of just to watch in between eyebrows, the very idea is to stop this mind. Silence this mind.

It gives up its imaginations. It has to give up its imaginations. No more thoughts or visions. They are not useful to know the Self. They can be useful in this world for judgment, for analysations, for all these things. So thus, you will not lose the mind. Nobody need worry about it. The mind is always there. If you practice meditation sincerely, you will simply regain control over your mind, and regain your form of Pure Consciousness, awareness about yourself. So that’s what we tell, you will come to know about yourself when you practice meditation. Once the job is done, and whenever you need to think, you can always think.

So finally, what we are talking about the ‘mind, mind’ is nothing but you. You are into imaginations, you are thinking, and you are preoccupied with your own imaginations. All your attention is on the things that is in the mind. Visions and thoughts and characters and stories, a world, a universe, everything is there. If that is stopped. So, these thoughts and visions get dissolved if you just watch them. You do not repeat any mantra, just watch them. Once it dissolves, the mind becomes totally silent. And then you become aware of your real Self. Your attention turns to yourself. As I told, you are made up of consciousness and energy. Consciousness means wherever you are able to apply, you become aware of that existence. So, when your mind totally stops, becomes silent, you are able to apply your attention to yourself. And you come to know about yourself. You become aware of yourself as that beautiful Soul, what is recognized as Atman, as the eternal entity that you are.

Questioner:  Thank you Babaji. The next question. “There are many methods of worship and rituals, but always the main thing that has been advocated is applying your mind. If the mind is not applied, it doesn’t get purified, it doesn’t get controlled.” Babaji, there are individuals who misinterpret their religion, resulting in them propagating violence and harm to other people who do not share the same religion with them. It is part of their worship and rituals. Is such teaching a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the truth? There are individual individuals that have been nurtured since young to practice such religion, and therefore they may apply their mind when performing such violent acts. Babaji, does this mean that their mind gets purified also? Why are there such teachings or religions? And what is the best attitude for us to have when dealing with all the different religions and teachings around us?

Shri Babaji:  Religion has no place for any violence at all. Any dislike or harming anybody else; this is a totally misunderstood concept, misinterpreted, misguided elements. They indulge in these types of things, it is not necessary at all. First thing, need to understand religion. Religion, I have told before also, is also taken from the Latin word meaning obligation. Obligation means your duties. The same thing, Dharma, also meaning your duties. Kartavya is the word. So, that’s what one needs to understand.

Now what is the duty? To be religious means what is it? That duty is every one of you, every individual, everybody has, Swamiji used to tell, triple responsibilities. You have a physical body. You need to take care of the health of the physical body. Then you need to take care of the mind’s health. Mind that is real you. The mind healthier means in what way? First thing it should be silent and remain in itself. That is the healthiest status of the mind, of yourself. You remaining in yourself in the stillness, in the quietness. That is what is recognised as the Ultimate Truth, Divinity, all these things, or the Atman. So, this is the duty that needs to be achieved.

If it is not in that Self, that means it has gone away from itself in imagination. That means it is a mistake. That mistake is recognized as sin, in fact; that’s what our opinion is. When you move away from yourself, from the awareness of yourself, you have committed a grave mistake. So, what this grave mistake means? Then you are likely to misinterpret and make others also misunderstand and misbehave in this world. One can become unnecessarily violent, accuse others. There is no such thing at all. Swamiji was very unique and clear. You can believe God in any form or formlessness, in any name, any form, any way. But do not condemn others’ beliefs. That’s how your approach should be. No place for any violence at all.

So now, second item as we are discussing, this is the most important thing, mind. Mind healthier means; this I told that it has to remain in itself in the silence, that is the status. That is the first thing to achieve – important. And then when it has to think, it has to think in a healthier way. Welfare of all the worlds. That was how in our ancient traditions, cultures, prayers were taught. “Lokah samastah sukhino bhavantu.” We do not pray only for our body, our own selves, nothing. We pray for all. In fact, in the mantras that is chanted, all creatures who stand on four feet, may there be happiness in them also. All the creatures who may stand on two feet, three feet, in whichever ways; like this, so many things, whatever they could understand, they have chanted like that. Chatushpada, dwipada, means two-footed animals, four-footed animals, creatures – may all of them be happy. So, like that, we pray every day. We do not have any hatred, any dislike.

We also recognize the fact. So now, the Ultimate Truth, when you want to worship or adore or remember, you can remember in any way you like. Our Great Sages were unique, our Masters were very unique. They understood; when they realised the space is all pervaded, like the space is all pervaded in the room, they thought anybody can recognize in any way they like. I may like to recognise it as absolute, “This room is filled with space. It is absolute.” You may like to call it, “This room is void with space.” It is up to you. No problem. Simply, we have to respect each other. Understand each other. That is what is needed. That is the healthier way of thinking. We always have to think, if at all we have to think, welfare of the entire world, entire universe, all the worlds. We don’t know how many worlds the Divine might have created. May there be happiness for all beings. May all beings be happy in all the worlds. That is the healthiest mind, healthiest you, healthiest self.

Otherwise we don’t think anything at all. When we are quiet, we are not trying to harm anybody. This also I have told in my talks, Swamiji used to tell, “If you cannot help somebody, at least do not harm them.” First thing when you do not harm, when you do not think badly about anything, about anybody, that means you have helped them. So, this is what is important that is taught in religion. It is what needs to be taught in religion also. That is why, you see, in today’s world, many youngsters particularly and many people are averse to the world of religion. “We don’t want to believe in any religion or religious teachers. They are all frauds,” they tell. “We don’t want to learn about anything about religion.” No problem. We don’t teach any religion. When we tell that we are not religious teachers, like our Swamiji used to tell, “We are not religious teachers. We are yogis. We are for the entire humanity,” that means we don’t teach any one particular doctrine, “This is all God. This is all religion.” Swamiji never taught any such philosophy. He just wanted everybody to meditate and know the truth.

He used to tell, you meditate then you will know it yourself and then you tell me what is your nature, what is your religion. Don’t simply become a victim of religious prejudices. Somebody has told you something and you start believing it immediately. So, when you allow somebody to brainwash you, how stupid it is? I hope all of you understand this, if you simply allow somebody to brainwash us. Whereas Swamiji never tried to brainwash. He never spoke about what you are or what the religion means, what this or that. He simply said you meditate and know yourself. He did not say, “I am telling you know yourself.” He told “You meditate and know yourself,” repeatedly. “Meditate and know only then you will know your real Self, if you meditate, if your mind becomes quiet.”

So, when we are able to achieve this status, automatically the third responsibility, upholding moral values, consideration to each other – we will be able to consider about each other in a very better manner. So, a perfect human being; we will be able to uphold the human values actually. So, where is the place for violence, where is the place for dislike, where is the place for any arrogance, ego, selfishness, narrow mindedness? All these would have vanished and flown away, when you practice meditation in its real sense. So, this is important to understand.

Questioner:  Thank you Babaji. The next question. Babaji, Hindus practice worshipping stone idol. However, this practice is often mocked or ridiculed and criticized by other religions. Babaji, can you explain further the significance of worshipping a stone idol? Can you also share with us how we should respond to such criticism? There are many who question our practice of abhishekam with some claiming that the same milk pot on the statues can be used to feed the poor, therefore claiming that we are practising food wastage. Babaji, can you share with us the significance of abhishekam? And what is the deeper meaning behind this practice?

Shri Babaji:  You see, the Divine, or the Ultimate Truth is all-pervaded. But we need some symbol, some symbolising something. So, that symbol every religion selects based on their cultural backgrounds when they come across the truth. But simply they should not think that is all the truth, means one should not become a frog of the pond. In Sanskrit it is known as kūpamandūka. Kūpa means ‘well’, you all understand? Well. So, the story that Swamiji also told us was the frog used to live in a well, small well. It had a lot of ego and arrogance. One day what happened, a frog from the ocean accidentally came and fell into the well. So, other frogs were asked to bring that frog which came from the ocean. The king frog asked, “Where are you from? Who are you?” It says, “I have come from ocean.” But then this frog tries to jump a little bit. “Oh, what nonsense your ocean is. Is your ocean this big?” For that the frog from the ocean laughs. “How can I explain to you what ocean is? What you have jumped is just a small micro-speck of this well. This well itself is a micro-speck of the ocean.” It gets annoyed and it tries to jump a little more. “Is your ocean this big?” “No, no, king, your majesty, you cannot understand what ocean is. You are unnecessarily jumping a little bit here and there.” Then it gets annoyed and it says, “Throw away this frog, there is no ocean that exists. We should not care for this. These type of frogs should not be admitted here. If it doesn’t go, kill this frog” it says.

So like that, this is what these people tell when they become violent or they criticize others. Our beautiful culture was like that. We took any symbol and just tried to worship the divine. All pervaded. When we practice, our elders have taught, apply your mind. God has not demanded gold or silver or milk or water. Anything; you pour a glass of water is enough. See, water is one of the most purifying agents. So, to give a bath, like that, pour. And that water is collected and everybody takes it as a theertham, as a prasad. So now it is the duty of all human beings who ever want to perform, keep the surface where you want to pour a milk or water clean, and you can collect that water after poured which comes down the idol and then everybody can partake that as prasadam. You don’t have to waste and allow it to get drained away. It is necessary.

So that is why, suppose you want to do an abhishekam on an idol. You have to keep the idol clean, so that when you pour milk or water it should not go to waste. Let alone milk, even water also must not go to waste if it is clean water, drinkable water. We should be able to collect it back and then everybody can partake that as a prasadam, as a blessed water. So now the exercise is, when you pour your water on your divine, you will feel that you are giving a bath. You are pouring it and you watch and your mind becomes single-pointed. You imagine your divine there. You know the divine is all-pervaded. And when you do the abhishekam, hundreds of other people also can stand and watch the abhishekam, and they all enjoy as water or milk is poured on our God. For them it is not a stone. It is not simply an idol. Not even simply a sculpted idol. It is the divine. It is our God who is there. It is our Swamiji who is sitting there for us.

So, any such surface is selected so that we are able to do abhishekam. Otherwise, there are other things like the photo, any such thing that we keep, like our Guru’s photo we keep and do worship. For that we can just offer flowers. From a distance we can offer some incense sticks and do aarati with a camphor, karpuram, like that also, any of these exercises. But what we need to understand; these are all not hard rules. Suppose you don’t have incense sticks, you have only camphor. You just do it with camphor, no problem. God will not get annoyed. If you don’t have camphor, you just do it with flowers. Offer two flowers. If you don’t even have flowers, Swamiji used to say, just fold your hands; at least you have hands. Even if your hands are cut also, you can raise your hands in the posture of doing namaskaram.

That is all God needs. What God wants is your mind. He has never demanded without gold you cannot do abhishekam, without milk you cannot do abhishekam; there is no such thing. No need of milk. You just pour water, is enough. But remember this point; the surface should be very cleanly kept, neatly kept. And also we should make arrangement that we are able to collect that water also. We should not waste the water also unnecessarily. We can collect it and partake it as a prasadam. When we offer nice sweets and food, we don’t allow it to go to waste. We very cleverly just put it in front of God, offer it to God and then we take and eat it. We should not be throwing. We should not do it in a wrong way.

In some places, many temples, there may be a habit to put fruits, fruits also on the idol or any such eatable item also on the idol as a mark of offering. But that should be done in a clean way so that you take it out as a prasadam, then wash with water properly, and that water also we should be able to partake. Otherwise, just keep any such food item in front of the idol and offer it as a naivedyam. That is good enough. Or as we are talking, pouring of abhishekam or the milk or water. So that’s when we try to teach these things; keep the surface clean for anything that you offer. Usually, there are traditional practices of offering panchamritam. Ghee, honey, sugar, yogurt and milk, all these things are offered. You offer, but do not do it in such a dirty way from your hands, your dirty hand. You must do it in a clean way so that you can collect them back and everybody can partake as a prasadam, offered prasadam, as a theertham. So, that’s what is important. Or just use milk or just use water is enough. No need of milk. God doesn’t mind. He has not demanded anything. It is our own practice.

So, there is nothing wrong in it, abhishekam. These are all the exercises where hundreds can participate. So, if meditation is difficult all the time twenty-four hours, other times, to keep your mind engaged, single-pointed, your mind must be there. When abhishekam is happening, others should not be gossiping. So, then your prayers will not reach God. When you are also doing abhishekam, your mind should not be scolding somebody else. That you should be careful. It should be purified. You should be remembering your God as all-pervaded. For that, you must feel that presence of the divinity there. It is there. We have to feel with our total faith and devotion. That is what is necessary.

So, this is an exercise of mind control. Instead of the mind running here and then millions of ways with thoughts, it has become single-pointed. If a person sincerely does this or follows this, abhishekam, any such ritual of worship, this concept, this rule must be understood. Then it is useful. Otherwise, it is a waste of exercise. That is what happens. So, we need to understand this. If anybody is interested to know we can explain. If they are not interested, if their criticism is politically motivated, we simply have to ignore. Like Swamji; “Tell your grandfather, whatever we want, we will do it. It is our wishes. We would like to see God like this, and we would like to worship.” Like that, Swamji used to tell, “You tell your grandfather, I am going to do like this. Who are you to stop me? I will do it.” Like that. So, that is what should be the attitude finally, if they are not ready to listen to our explanations.

Questioner:  Thank you, Babaji. Babaji, the next question is about the Self. In one of Babaji’s talks, Babaji has said, “The real Self or actual Self can only be perceived when one is able to pay attention to oneself. How will one be able to pay attention when you do not know one’s real Self? The mind itself consists of consciousness and energy, which is infinite, which is not visible to the naked eye. You will only succeed in getting to know the real Self when you succeed in keeping the mind totally quiet. And when the mind becomes quiet, consciousness of existence is known.” Babaji, are we there for living in a make-believe world if we do not discover our real Self?

Shri Babaji:  Yes, that is why a Guru-disciple relationship is recommended. This is where a Guru comes in to teach, to guide, to be a touch bearer. That’s what Swamiji used to tell. Sometimes a Guru means you are walking on the road. Suddenly you might be arrogant, you might tell, “I don’t need anybody to guide me. I know this road goes and I will be simply going. But suddenly you come to a circle from where a road goes to east, a road goes to west, and a road goes to north. Now you are confused, “Which way I have to go? My God.” Then you need somebody to guide you, to tell, “This is the road that you have to take.” Just now your mind is totally preoccupied with its thoughts, and that is how you don’t know how to discover your real Self, how to pay attention to your real Self, how to know your real Self; you don’t know. The Master comes in. Listen to the Master. When you listen, you need to have faith. But you don’t have to blindly believe. Follow the methods, adopt them. The Master is giving you the technique every day, every time makes you to sit for meditation, He tells you “This is how you sit. Remain relaxed” – He is guiding you. And then watch in between eyebrows, use your eyeballs to concentrate.

Now the question is, are you able to do what your Master is guiding you? That’s important. You go to school, you go to college, you listen to your Master. You don’t question “Why I should believe you, Master?” The Master will ask you, “Now you go away, then you don’t want to believe me, you get out of this class. Why are you wasting others’ time?” But we don’t want to tell like that one, rudely or arrogantly. But you have to believe, right? Afterwards, when you gain experience, you will understand, that was what the truth that the Master was teaching. Like here, Master guides how to pay attention. You have the power to pay attention, but you are busy somewhere else. So, if our Master has come, if you are busy talking in the cellphone to your friend, that means you are busy, you don’t have time to listen to the Master. And you have called the Master to teach you meditation. A Master wants to pull you up a little bit. Can you please put this cellphone to silent mode or airplane mode, any such thing so that when I teach you, you can listen to me? It is not that you will be busy talking to your friend and I am just talking to this wall. All of you are sitting here, sixty, seventy people. You all need to pay attention when I am answering the question. This is a teaching. Answering a question is the teaching what we learnt from our Master, that is important.

So, thus you have to practice what the Master says. The master is saying. You achieve the silence of the mind. You achieve the watching in between the eyebrows. Practice like that with all the patience, dedicate and have a disciplined approach. Regularly you practice. While practicing, don’t think of this and that and what all those things. Just now you have to learn meditation. You have to practice meditation. You have to know yourself. You don’t have to bother about how many lives there were, how many lives there is going to be. That is not now. That can be bothered afterwards. You will know the truth yourself if you practice meditation. That same thing Swamiji also told; “Don’t become a victim of religious prejudices.” Somebody has told something and that’s what you have to be. And the person is going round the town, round the town, round the town to find milk. He couldn’t find milk, and he is unable to do abhishekam. Hundred years have passed by, he is still going around, he is unable to find milk. So, he tells his master, “I could not worship my God. I could not meditate also because I am looking for milk. Without milk, how can I meditate? How can I do abhishekam?” The master scolded. “Idiot, you could have taken a glass of water. If the water was also not there, you could have simply sat and meditated. There was no need for going around to find milk only. There is no such rule. Did God come and ask you that you have to pour milk on me, then I will give you Self-Realization? No, He said become quiet mentally. In that stillness, know that ‘I’, that consciousness of ‘I’, is the Truth of Existence.”

That’s why we keep giving clue also. Like, you see, amongst millions of thoughts that you have, there is one thing. You always have the feeling that you exist. That is the consciousness of existence. But just now, you are unable to notice because your mind is diverted to millions of thoughts that is in the mind, which is creating for you depression, pain, stress, confusion and so on and on and on. So much of things are there, so you are unable to pay attention. Stop your mind from thinking, means you stop thinking, in other words. That is the truth. And then, see? You will know yourself. Stop watching this movie. You will remember you are just sitting and watching the movie. You are not agreeing to stop the movie. And then you are blaming me that you are unable to know yourself. Stop the movie that is in your mind. Stop that world. Stop that mind. Stop thinking. Stop worrying. Stop imagining. Automatically it is there. It is you – in you. You will become aware of it. That’s how first you have to achieve this, stopping the mind.

God can be shown to you. But you have to stop the mind. Can you do that one? That’s necessary. Otherwise, if we keep shouting, “How to meditate? How will I know that one? I don’t believe you that anybody can know themselves, that I can stop the mind.” You can stop the mind. Follow this technique. Practice like this. You are unable to stop your mind. What can I do? You should stop your mind. So, like that, when the Master teaches, he has come to teach. So, this relationship is very necessary. You need to become a disciple first. That’s when Swamiji told, “Try to become a worthy disciple first, don’t be in a rush to become a guru.” When we ourselves don’t know the truth properly, we should not try to teach others. That’s why Swamiji said, “First you need to achieve Self-Realization.” Mentally you have to become quiet. Then you can teach others. That’s very important, right?

So, this is how a Master is needed and a Master teaches. If you pray to God, you will be guided to the Master, or the Master will come to you. First, you need to be sincere, is very important. Then you will definitely find your Master. You will not compromise on any other things until you are not guided to know the Self transparently. Then you will understand, “Ah, this is the right Master. This is what I wanted.” The master comes and gives you, “I will give you a lottery ticket. Don’t worry, you go, go today.” “Oh,” you will worry. “This lottery ticket is not the reason I came. I came for Self-Realization, and this master is telling that he will give me a lottery ticket. I came for Self-Realization, and this master is telling that “You are something else in your previous life, you are already Realized.” What is the use if I was Realized in my previous life? In this life I feel like drinking alcohol, what is the use? Guide me, Master. What should I do to become Self-Realized in this life, here now?” That is what is wanted. We don’t need so many other lives. It’s important for you to know what you are now. Don’t bother for a while about your other lives. No need. You need what you are now. Got it?

Questioner:  Thank you, Babaji. Babaji, there is one question in the chat. Can I read the question?

Shri Babaji:  We’ll take this last question, please.

Questioner:  Okay, thank you, Babaji. With regards to divine guidance, at what point do we realize that the decision taken is guided by God? Can Babaji please explain?

Shri Babaji:  When your mind is not confused, it is a clear consciousness. It is not stressed out. So, then it will not doubt. You will know it is the Divine’s grace. Because every moment, every step, everything that happens, the Divine is guiding you to go back to the Self, to know your real Self. That will come only when your mind becomes clear. If the water is dirty and flowing and shaking, you will not know the clarity of the water. It has to stop first. If the water is stand-still, then the clear water is visible. In the same way, mind has to stop. When the clear consciousness is visible, then you will know that was the Divine’s grace. We all did like that when our minds became clear, stopped. Then we understood – everything – for the last seventy years at least when this body has come, that the Divine did, the Divine Master did, at that time we might not have felt very comfortable or happy, but now we are happy that thing happened then. It’s clear. It was the Divine’s grace that was all the time coming. We refused to notice. We took time to notice or understand. We took so much of time to understand.

So, mind’s clarification. Clear is very necessary. When your mind becomes clear, so that’s why meditate first. Then you will understand the grace of the Divinity is always there. Swamiji also used to tell, all great masters have told, “The Guru’s grace is always flowing. You have to build the dam called faith and devotion. Then your consciousness becomes the catchment area.”

So, wonderful for giving me an opportunity to share my experiences, and what my Guru taught me. Follow them and don’t forget. You all practice meditation, sadhana. Yeah, I can see all of you sitting here. My love and blessings to all of you. Now, it is time for me to disappear for a while. We’ll come back again in the next sessions. Okay, right?

Questioner:  Thank you, Babaji.

Shri Babaji:   Bye-bye. May you all be blessed.

End of Session