0:00 Introduction
0.10 What Babaji means by ‘real’
4:55 Am ‘I’ real?
8:00 Does this realness have characteristics?
16:37 What is creativity?
20:20 Is there a connection between our attention and being aware of our reality?
21:35 How can we avoid being sucked into the world when it seems so real to us?
28:21 Can we say that the experience of the unreal is itself also unreal?
30:00 Are our close human relationships also unreal?
32:44 In the world, when we have to react to this unrealness, what should we do?

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji – online Q and A No. 145
Real and Unreal Part 2
Recorded: 09 September 2023 with worldwide participants

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Babaji, this week we wanted to look at the phenomenon of real and unreal.  When Babaji uses the word real, it seems to have a different meaning to the way it’s often used commonly.  Could Babaji describe what He means by ‘real,’ please?

Babaji Maharaj:   Here, for me when I use the words ‘real’ and ‘unreal’, ‘real’ is the one which has a permanent existence value.  That is the ‘real’ for me.  The ‘unreal’ is which does not have a permanent or eternal existence value, which simply appears, and after some time disappears.  So that one we would like to recognize as unreal.  Unreal because it cannot give us a permanent happiness if we try to depend on any of these things. Thus, as I define always, what spirituality alerts – that you cannot depend on this universe, world or anything, including your own physical body for a permanent happiness.  Because these things are all impermanent; it will go away one day in its own time.  One might be twenty-four hours, another might be twenty-four years, another might be hundred years or a billion years, whatever years it is.  Whether it is earth, sun, moon, anything we try to depend for our happiness, that is unreal.  Whichever can give us a permanent happiness has to be the real, means has to be having an existence value permanently at all times, which has never appeared and which is not going to disappear.  That’s what I mean about real and unreal. 

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  Just revisiting that whole concept because it is such a central thing to Babaji’s teachings and it’s to me so unusual.  If I look at this pen, I have been taught this pen is real because I can see it and I can touch it and other people who I believe to be real tell me that it is also real.  But Babaji says it’s not real because it’s not permanent. 

Babaji Maharaj:   See, at the moment an object which is impermanent is able to feel another object which is also impermanent.  The body itself is impermanent and this body is able to feel the pen; that is a different thing.  Just like in a dream, you are also in the dream and you are able to feel another object in that dream.  But the one as you go on watching that dream, you really don’t touch anything if you try to analyze and understand. Only that figure which is also in the dream imagined by you, even if it is you only, you might be seeing yourself in the dream – that can touch any object of the dream.  But all these are going to disappear once you get up.  So that is why it is unreal.  It cannot be real.  It appears and it disappears.  You can try to write; for some time you can write on this, into this by this pen.  But all the time you cannot write with this pen.  This reminds of Abraham Lincoln’s, “Some of the people can be fooled all of the time.  All of the people can be fooled some of the time.  But all of the people cannot be fooled all of the time.”  Like that, our own physical body cannot be held for all of the time.  And thus, we cannot hold the pen also all of the time.  Both the body and pen are disappearing.  So, it is unreal, thus. 

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  So, then Babaji am I real? 

Babaji Maharaj:   See, you as the real consciousness of existence, not the physical body.  Like for me now, after the realization, in my consciousness I never recognize the body in front of me as you.  When I mention ‘you’, I recognize you as that eternal soul, that existence, that is the real thing.  Means, now further to explain elaborately, how you can find out? Within you also, you have a consciousness of existence.  But certainly I can tell that consciousness is not the body which is sitting in front of me as Bruce Young.  That consciousness of existence is beyond this physical body; beyond the birth and death or existence of this physical body, that is inside.  For that, what I tell is, in your mind, amongst millions of thoughts that you might have, there is one thing which is not an imagined thing.  That is the consciousness of your own existence.  You see, whereas all the rest of visions and thoughts in your mind come and go, come and go, appear and disappear.  And one time it can permanently disappear also.  But, when you practice meditation, when you get rid of all other thoughts and visions, now there is no thought, no vision.  But you will find that you are existing there.  Though you may not be visible for your own naked eyes, but you can feel yourself.  Only that you can feel yourself.  This body will not feel you anymore when you concentrate, remain focused on that consciousness of existence.  That’s what will happen in meditation eventually.  When you achieve the silence of the mind, when you get rid of all other thoughts and visions, they all dissolve.  So that ‘you’ is what is the real and this ‘you’ which is appearing as a physical body with a white beard and a black shirt and a human being…

Sorry for the interruption, we had heavy rains today so the internet is becoming a bit of a problem. We are trying on a hotspot from my phone, hope this will continue for some time.

   Hope you all heard what I was telling the last time about your consciousness of existence.  You existing as, and not this physical body which is in front of me. 

Question:   Yes, Thank You Baba.  So Babaji, following on from that question, does that real, does that realness have characteristics?  

Babaji Maharaj:   What we can find is, it is made up of consciousness and energy.  This is the nearest word that I can imagine in this world for sake of communication and understanding.  That’s how I can tell, it is made up of consciousness and energy.  When we compare to the mind, we try to call this as the Supreme Consciousness and Supreme Energy, the Ultimate Truth that is simply all-pervaded in the space.  Actually, there is no such thing as a space, only that thing exists.  Simply, that is appearing as a void because that has been fed to our brains;  “This is a void place, this is space.”  We took it in good faith.  Now we get to see that almost everybody in the world used the same terminology and we simply believe; we have no other choice.  But if we practice and experience the truth, that day we will refuse to accept even if the whole world is trying to recognize this as space, as a void place, our experience will tell, “No. this is not simply a void place or simply a space.  It is the Ultimate Truth, the consciousness of existence which exists in itself.”  That is the beauty of its characteristic. As you are asking about characteristic, whereas if you see the whole universe, all the matter, everything exists in the space, it cannot go out of space also; it cannot exist without the space.  It has to be appearing within the space and disappear within the space only. 

But whereas the space itself doesn’t need anything else for its existence, it can exist even if the entire universe disappears, entire Milky Way, galaxies, everything, all creations disappear, that space will remain as it is.  Even if nobody calls it a space or God or Ultimate Truth or anything, it will exist as it is.  It is supremely consciousness, means here, wherever that consciousness is applied, you can become aware of it.  That is how we are temporarily experiencing ourselves in our mind because we have applied the mind to this world.  This world is appearing to us.  Further, we are analyzing this world and we are defining this world.  Thus, we have built up a world within our mind also.  That is how our consciousness, we as the consciousness, have come to be known as mind.  Generally, we recognize ourselves, not ourselves as the mind.  We don’t tell that “I am the mind,” but we tell “My mind” instead of that.  We still have doubt that there is something else other than this mind about us.  We are something else, that means.  It cannot be this body.  The mind is not coming from this body.  You cannot measure the mind; you cannot see the mind in naked eyes. Where is it located?  We cannot show its color.  We cannot show its form also.  Like these are the characteristics of this consciousness and energy.  It is energetic also.

  Thus, consciousness and energy are inseparable; because of the presence of energy, it is able to be creative.  Consciousness is able to be creative.  It can create, it can imagine.  When it imagines, that thing gets created within that consciousness.  Like in your imagination, in your mind when you imagine, that imagined thing immediately appears in your mind.  In the same way the Supreme Consciousness which has imagined, this world has appeared within that Supreme Consciousness.  This is not outside.  Any number of planets might be appearing or dying; stars are appearing and dying.  You use any powerful telescopes to watch thousands and thousands and thousands of light-year distances.  But finally, they are all in the space, not out of space.  Nobody will tell that, “O, I saw a planet appearing out of the space where there is no space.”  It cannot happen like that, right?”  So, these are some of the characteristics that we observe.  And that is how we recognize this as the Ultimate Truth. In Gayatri Mantra the great sage Vishwamitra recognized it as Divinity, why?  We are looking for peace and happiness.  Everybody wants peace and happiness.  Conferences happen, seminars happen, countries come together, talks happen, whether they practice or not, everybody expresses that they want happiness.  They all want, we all want happiness.  So here Vishwamitra says, “If you adopt that Supreme Consciousness as a remembrance in your mind, your mind’s unhappiness and sins will be washed away.”  Sins, here, as I have already explained in the previous classes, is the grave mistake.  Not the sins that we have adopted in this world, “O, robbing somebody is a sin, this is a sin”, but we don’t follow the rules for ourself.  We keep telling for others.  That is not the thing.  Here, this is a grave mistake because you have forgotten about your real Self and you are experiencing all happiness, unhappiness, fear, stress, panic and unknown anxiousness, unknown fear, brooding, everything you are experiencing simply because of this imagination that is in your mind.  And simply because you have forgotten about your real Self, what you are; you are not aware of it in consciousness.  That is the reason.  So, these are all some of the characteristics that if we go on discussing, maybe more will come out; for now, this is the thing. 

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  So, Babaji, the thing that is real, it has no cause?

Babaji Maharaj:   It cannot be because it never came into existence.  It’s already there.  Another thing, for its existence it doesn’t need anything else.  It exists in itself.  That is why it doesn’t need anything because there cannot be any cause.  Its existence has no cause at all – beyond the cause.  Nobody has made it appear.  So, everything else except this space, you see, requires something for its existence.  As we need oxygen for existence, plants need oxygen for existence and matter needs space for its existence, if nothing.  Like that, we all have a need for existence.  Whereas this has no cause.  Nobody made it exist.  It is already there, always there. 

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  Babaji, we’ve had some questions sent in.  Before we ask people to raise their hands, I was hoping to ask those questions, please. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, we can ask. 

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  Babaji, Tim Shaw has written, “In Babaji’s new book, He speaks of consciousness, creativity, human mind, Supreme Consciousness.  Could Babaji please elaborate on creativity?” 

Babaji Maharaj:   Consciousness or Supreme Consciousness has the ability to create or to imagine.  Because when we use the word ‘imagine’, people tend to think it as an ordinary thing.  “O, that’s all, imagination.”  No, that imagination is not an ordinary thing.  It is a power.  It is an ability that is in the consciousness.  That’s what when it rises to a higher level, we call it as creativity.  In this world, human beings through their minds’ application, brains’ application, they become creative.  They can create movies, they can create stories, they can create characteristics and so many.  They can invent machinery.  That means they can create machinery; they can create weapons.  But for everything, they need a raw material.  This is another thing.  So that’s what I was trying to maintain, the Supreme Consciousness has this creativity ability.  When it goes on creating, simply if it had created and not forgotten about itself, there wouldn’t have been a problem.  As it went on creating, an enormous portion of consciousness came out in the illusion from the Supreme Consciousness which forgot itself, its real Self because it became insecure for a while.  It became attracted to what it created.  It started thinking, “This created thing is the thing which will sustain me, which will give me power, which will make me supreme.”  See the people of the world – they are all collecting materials, matter right from ten dollars to a big kingdom.  Everybody is collecting power, they want power.  They think that it will sustain them.  They don’t know one day the power that they have collected will go away and the power to which they collected also will go away.  The body, the personality, that will also go away.  Nothing is permanent, like this everything will go away.  So that’s what I was trying to tell, the human mind, when it becomes insecure, when it forgets itself; that’s why we try to teach, “You have forgotten about yourself, that’s why you are miserable in this world.”  Miserable means you experience unhappiness, fear, stress, anxiousness, all these things, insecurity.  You are unable to trust each other.  You want to go into a conflict.  You feel threatened.  So many things, all these things are happening for humans particularly.  Of course, to other living species also, animals everywhere it is there.  So, this is what I was trying to tell through mind, creativity and Supreme Consciousness. 

Question:   Thank You Baba.  Babaji, Zen has sent some questions in I’d like to ask if possible please, Baba.  His first question is, is there a connection between our attention and being aware of reality?

Babaji Maharaj:   When we pay attention, we become aware of our reality.  That is how the connection is there.  To become aware of our own reality, we need to pay attention of ourselves.  Just now, we are not aware of ourselves because we are not paying attention to ourselves.  We are paying attention to our created things, our imagined things.  This world and that thing that is in the mind, we are totally attentive of those things; we are paying attention.  So, because of that, we are unable to pay attention to ourselves.  So, we are not aware of ourselves.  So thus, they both are connected, interconnected.  One is because of the other. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  Zen has also asked – how do we avoid being sucked into the world when by habit it appears so real to us?

Babaji Maharaj:   Having a firm conviction when we watch the impermanence of the world, that we need to understand “O, this entire universe, our own body….”  If not universe, if we are unable to understand the universe, at least we all understand our own body is impermanent.  Everybody, as soon as they gain conscious of this world, we all understood that we are going to die.  When we saw old people when we were five years old, we saw old people who were dying, we understood; our elders told that we will also die, we will also become old.  That’s how we all understood.  Like this, it is so easy.  We understand that we are all impermanent.  But if we watch the universe, observe the universe, we will understand everything is impermanent.

  No season is permanent, no time is permanent, no vision is permanent; we all understand now, one day the world will also disappear.  When we see other planets, so there also perhaps one time, there would have had been such atmosphere so that there could have been living species.  But today we don’t find anything on the Moon or Mars or Jupiter so far.  Like that, if at all any living species, it has to have such things that are available on this planet Earth.  That’s what everybody is trying to understand through conferences and seminars and twenties and thirties, banging on the table, arriving at a consensus.  But when they go out, whether they will practice is going to be seen.  So, that is why we are not able to be aware of our real Self.  We get sucked into this world. 

Illusion is so strong, you see.  Even when we see a small sweet, we get so sucked and attracted – until we don’t buy that ice cream and have it, we become restless.  Imagine this entire world, a person who is having a kingdom, who is the president, who is all powerful, who is a dictator, who is a king, who is an emperor, he won’t like to give up that one.  He is so attracted to that power because everybody is ready in front of him.  “Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir,” whatever he says.  Even if he is naked, if he says, “I am having finest form of cloths,” everybody will say, “Yes, sir, your cloths are the most beautiful one.” So that is the story of this world.  We get sucked into this world.  But from childhood, if we can have a firm conviction, don’t forget that this body is going to die.  That one thing gave me such firm conviction – this entire world is impermanent, my body is also impermanent.  It will not give me a permanent happiness.  And also I observed there was no permanent happiness.  Sometimes there was excitement, some happiness.  That always happened when we were anticipating something is going to come.  Tomorrow something is going to happen.  Tomorrow we are celebrating our birthday.  A happiness was there.  But once that was over, that happiness was gone.  Unknown fear, “What will happen instead of birthday if I had died?  There wouldn’t have been any birthday.  I wouldn’t have been watching any birthday.”  Like this, I used to think and wonder.  So that means this is all impermanent.  That’s how we realized. 

So, when we churn, use our brains and churn in our mind about these facts that we can observe in this world that is in front of us.  The truth is so visible, but we get attracted to other things.  Like I tell, in the mind, thought after thought keeps coming; in-between thoughts the gap is also there.  Say the gap is the happiness, permanent; the thoughts are unhappiness which are not permanent.  But our attention goes to the thought which is impermanent.  I always tell when you enter the hall, when you enter the room, your attention seldom goes to the space which is permanent and happiness.  Your attention goes to all the people who are sitting there, all the microphones which are there, all the fans, all the wall, all the materials that are there.  We try to look for our happiness.  “O, if I can have a new Surface, I will be very happy.”  Like that we start thinking instead of understanding this space is the one.  At least we should be able to think, “O God, if I can be like this space.”  Many times people watch the sky and they have expressed how beautiful these birds are. They start thinking they are independent.  “O, they are flying in the air, if only we could have been birds.”  Then I told them, “No, no, no, no, you haven’t watched their life.  They are so scared to come down.  A cat might catch hold of that one.  Some snake might catch hold of that one.  They are afraid for their life.  They have to be flying but they cannot be flying all the time.  They have to find some place.  They might fly long, continents across they can fly but finally somewhere they need to find a place to rest.”   So, nobody is secure.  No, nothing.  Everybody is insecure.  A president, a dictator, an emperor, everybody is insecure.  So, only the space – we can see that it is secure but our attention doesn’t go there.  That’s what happens.  We get sucked into this world so quickly because of our own weakness, inability to defend ourselves against unreality. 

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  There is one last question from Zen which is very interesting.  He says, “Can we say that the experience of the unreal is also itself unreal?”

Babaji Maharaj:   Exactly.  But we are not realizing that this experience is also unreal.  We are considering in your mind it as a reality.  That is the problem.  The question is right. Because the thing itself is unreal, our experience about the unreality is also unreal. But we are considering it as real – that is the problem.  The experience itself is not a problem because there is no experience that is happening, but we are considering it as a reality.  You are dreaming, but if you consider that dream as a reality you will be affected when you get up also.  You will be disturbed.  “Some bad dream came, my God.”  For several days, so many days you will be disturbed.  That is because you considered that dream as a reality.  So that is the point here for this question.  Experience is unreal I will agree, but we are considering it as a reality.  That consideration needs to be considered properly so that we stop considering unreality as a reality.  Then we get rid of the problem. 

Question:   Thank You Baba.  Babaji, Mudita has sent in a question.  Human relationships, there are close human relationships – are they also unreal?

Babaji Maharaj:   In imagination, everything is unreal.  When we talk of this entire universe, what we have, relationships.  See, you must not misunderstand when I give.  This is only for sake of teaching philosophy, the reality.  Like in a dream, you have a relationship with somebody. Is not that also unreality?  In the same way, when this entire universe is unreal, every relationship is unreal.  That is what Adi Shankara, singing “Pita Naiva Me Naiva Maata Na Janmaha; Na Bandhur Na Mitram Gurur Naiva Shishyaha…”  Nothing is real.  There was no mother, no father.  I was never born.  There was no Guru.  There was no disciple.  I never had to learn.  I never had to teach.  But if we consider, that appears as a real; that is the thing you have to understand.  It’s actually unreal.  Finally, Adi Shankara says, “Chidananda Rupah Shivoham Shivoham.” “I, as the total thoughtlessness, simple quietness in Supreme Peace is the only reality.” “Nacha Vyoma Bhumir Na Tejo Na Vaayuhu…”  “I am not this earth.  I am not on this earth.  I am not this sky, limited.  I am not in the sky.  I am That, that Shivoham.  I am that totally thoughtless Shiva, that Supreme Consciousness of existence.” That’s what Adi Shankara talks in Nirvana Ashtakam. 

One moment. There is one question from Ambaji here in person, we will take that and come back to others. Yes please.

Mata Ambaji: [inaudible]

Babaji Maharaj: Hope you all heard the question what she was asking. When we live in this world in the physical body, when certain things happen, somebody irritates us or we get attracted to something, we will have to react.  So, she says, “What should be the process?  Either we totally give up this body and this world or what is it?”

   Now the answer is to be understood and absorbed.  See, there are things.  You do the sadhana of meditation, that we are teaching.  And often, we talk the word of liberation, getting liberated, Self-realization.  So, when you go for that one, if you practice that type of meditation so strongly that you get rid of all emotions within your consciousness, when that mind becomes pure consciousness, then when you become Self-realized you wait for the body to come to an end.  This body will go one day on its own.  I don’t have to bother too much.  Just need to have some patience, be quiet.  Once this goes, no physical body will come.  You will remain in the space as the space, as the Ultimate Truth.  That is, total liberation.  Nothing exists and you have given up.  This is one thing that you can take up this path for the final liberation. 

   Another thing, as you go on living in this world, in this physical body, you react whatever is needed.  If needed, you do a hissing noise, you show some annoyance.  Everything is alright.  But if this annoyance or irritation or a dislike or a hatred, any such thing is going to trouble you for long time in your mind, that is the time when you acquire a problem.  But if you are a jivanmukta, if you have done tapas, if your mind is silent… being a yogi also, sometimes you might feel irritated, you might show a little bit anger if necessary.  We will reserve our right to show the anger, I have told in my teachings.  But that anger will not trouble me.  It’s not going to sit in the mind; after showing that anger, that job is done.  Finish.  That coat is taken out.  We don’t keep that annoyance in the mind for long time.  I don’t have to be bada bada [chattering noise] all the time; no need.  I am at peace. 

So, this is a practice.  Without practice, this will not come.  It is a very good question.  Simply by a theory, simply by listening to somebody’s lecture, simply by reading, this will not come.  All lecture listening, reading a book are all for motivation to acquire inspiration, draw inspiration; you read that one, but you have to practice.  That is why we tell practice meditation, practice, practice, practice is the mantra.  When you practice to that level, then you will see your mind will remain silent all the time and no trouble will be there at all.  You may become irritated for a while.  You may show anger.  You may fight.  You may do hissing noise, anything.  It is just like that only, for a while, acting.  You are acting in this world like a drama, but you remain unaffected.  This is also one thing that you can achieve.  Like this.  When this physical body is there, in my opinion, this is personal opinion, important, never try to run away from the world on your own.  Because more you try to run away from the world, the world will go after you to eat you up because you are taking your mind also with you.  If you had taken out the mind, anywhere you remain, there is no world for you.  You remain in the Ashram; you remain in the fish market.  It is all the same for you.

End of Session