0:00 Introduction
0:10 How Swamiji taught, emphasising the importance of your own experience
7:54 How Swamiji taught in a unique way to bring meditation to every doorstep
14:27 The two paths in life
20:18 How can we develop the ‘do or die’ attitude that Swamiji had?
29:45 The meaning of ‘Atma sakshatkara’
36:26 The need for a Guru and ‘Aham Brahmasmi’
38:31 Once merged with the Self, can an individual be reborn?

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji – online Q and A No. 135
The Teachings of Sri Shivabalayogi Maharaj
Recorded on 29 April 2023 with worldwide participants

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Swamiji talked about no matter how many scriptures you read or how many lectures you listen to, your own experience can make a lot of difference.  So, He spoken in a practical way rather than with theory – there was no doctrine.   Could Babaji speak about yogis and how they teach, how there is no real doctrine or belief system one has to adopt, simply the mind has to become quiet?

Babaji Maharaj:   Very true. Swamiji insisted for sadhana and He used to say many people misunderstand when they read a book that they have obtained knowledge.  He used to say a book reading is recommended; it is not totally prohibited.  We have produced so many books.  A book can be always motivating, showing the path, giving clues of what you are supposed to do and what you are supposed to achieve, giving you an inspiration to go on this path.  But however, finally the truth will be revealed when you go for that experience yourself.  When you experience, that is the first-hand knowledge, till then everything else is second-hand knowledge.  He also explained sometimes, say if directly a Guru teaches and if that is recorded – today we have a lot of facilities, such instruments are there, video, audio recordings can be done.  Or other than that, in olden days students, the disciples used to listen to the master’s teachings, and afterwards if the master has disappeared physically, so then they would convey the message of the Guru and teachings to the next generation, next generation, next generation, like that.  When the next generation people are giving the message, they should have understood the master thoroughly, perfectly;it is essential.  Otherwise, they can be misinterpreting what the master has said.   Many times He would have told some other thing but in a different context.  One would be wondering, “Why the cleaning of toilets, how does it give the essence of Bhagavad-Gita?”   As we went on doing that, that was the first teaching sentence I heard from Swamiji after going to the Ashram, from Him personally.  For a while anybody could be bewildered, “What is this?  Is it service or what?”  Slowly we understood it is the ego that we need to lose.  We must not entertain any ego because Swamiji said, “Come to me as a devotee, not as any other person, not as an engineer, not as a businessman, not as a royal person, not as an army man, nothing.  Just come, forget about all those things outside the gates.  Just come in.  Let that humility be there, then you will be able to learn.”  So, like that Swamiji always used to insist.  And then only practical is necessary.  And to us also He used to tell sometimes, “You see, you all must learn thoroughly, perfectly, and then practice and experience the truth to yourself.  Then only you will be able to convey my message to the next generation in its perfect sense, otherwise you can be conveying in a wrong way if you have not understood.”  So, like this He always used to insist.  So, for that purpose only He always used to tell, “Try to become a perfect thorough disciple first.  Do not be in a rush, urgent to become a guru.  So, perfect yourself; perfection is important.”  For that, sadhana He insisted.  So that’s how Swamiji used to tell.  So that is necessary.  Whereas we all recommend, reading a book is not wrong.  Even Swamiji Himself recommended reading Yoga Vashista.  But along with the second sentence He said, “If you can read and understand that scripture thoroughly, then you don’t have to read anything.” So that was important.  All the three things.  “First you read the Yoga Vashista which contains my philosophy.  Then if you can understand that after reading, so then only you will have thoroughly understood everything and you may not need anything else to read.”  So, like that only Swamiji insisted.  So, these things are important. 

Many times, we try to finish the book in one night.  “O in one day itself I finished the book and I have repeated the book so many times.”  But a transformation wouldn’t have come.  If a person… I have seen such persons across even in Swamiji’s devotees, one who would read so many books, who was authority on books and would talk like anything.  But when I did sadhana, then I understood he is simply dependent on the book and he understood the book from the viewpoint of a book.  He didn’t understand in which context the master has told.  Like, for example if I write, fifteen days after I went to Dehradun Ashram in 1974 Swamiji visited there and was sitting with me and He asked me, “Look if you can clean the toilets of this Ashram, you will understand the essence of Bhagavad Gita” -if I write only that much, ten people, fifty people may understand that in different ways. “Ashram-going, is that all?  You have to only clean the toilets?”  One boy was bewildered, actually.  “Coming to the ashram it can be quite discouraging if you teach this one, Babaji.  You should not tell this to devotees newly, if anybody wants to come to ashram particularly.”  I was surprised.  So, that was the attitude of a person.  So, like this, understanding, misunderstanding can always happen.  So, one needs to understand thoroughly, perfectly.  For that sadhana is important.  See, Swamiji said, “You have to meditate also.  If you are reading a scripture, scripture reading – slowly read a few pages, two three pages and try to digest what has been said.  And then meditate also.  Then only, next day only, read others.  Simply if you read the book only you may not be able to understand.”  So, like that Swamiji recommended book reading also, scripture reading also.  Along with that you must be practicing; the sadhana must happen. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  Swamiji also said, “No need to run to forest or caves.”  He wanted to bring meditation to every doorstep.  And not for people to think of an excuse not to meditate; so you can sit in any comfortable posture, you can live any way of life you want.  He was quite unique in that regard, Babaji has always said.

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, definitely.  Because you see in some of the scriptures, we get to read that some sages used to go on the outskirts of the town to the jungles, forest areas where they could sit peacefully and do meditation.  They did tapas like that one.  So, watching that if we also think everybody who wants to deeply meditate or do tapas must go to a forest or a cave, sit there.  No, the idea of going to the forest or a cave is just to find a serenity, quietness, solitude – that is necessary.  But Swamiji alerted and warned, “Beware,you will be carrying your mind also to the forest or to the cave.”  And that will trouble you.  You will sit in a cave thinking that you have given up the whole world.  The whole world will come on to your mind.  You will be wondering the same thing.  Any food item that is dearer to you, any personality that was dearer to you, anything that you are missing in the life.  You would be thinking of all those things only.  And you will get frustrated, and very soon you will come back to the world.  So thus, you are always a worldly person.  Being a worldly person, not being a worldly person is all through the mind.  So, instead you practice at your home itself first, one-hour daily practice.  Slowly and slowly as you mature, as your mind becomes more silent and on its own the vairagya comes, then if you want to find a solitude. Just like Swamiji went to graveyard and sat there until the temple was built.  So, the idea that He went to the graveyard was the village urchins, boys, children were troubling Him all the time, throwing mud and throwing kerosine-dipped cloth and putting fire, throwing some stones quietly to find out, “O, he should not be able to know anything if we do it because he is in samadhi.” So that type of, what you call as misunderstandings, not proper knowledge, superstitious beliefs people entertain always.

For that reason only Swamiji went and sat in the graveyard thinking that the children will not come there, they will be scared and there won’t be any trouble.  But there He had to find other type of troubles.  It was rainy season.  He was sitting on the ground, so then His skin got decayed, rodents or something, scorpion, something would be biting all the time.  It was becoming very difficult for him to keep the mind in samadhi.  That was when one night He got up, out of samadhi, started crying.  He was a small child of fourteen years, He wanted to go back home.  But He had the vision of the same Jangama Sage who was standing at the gate of the graveyard.  He said, “For twelve years you have to do this tapas.  Till then I will not allow you to go anywhere else.  Afterwards you can do whatever you want to do.”  Once He heard these twelve years is what the Jangama Sage wants him to sit, then Swamiji became determined.  That was His nature – ‘hang on to it.’  Then He said, “Only death of the body can stop me doing that tapas.  So, until twelve years I won’t bother for anything.  I will just do the tapas.”  He came and sat again.  He never looked back.  So, He had those inborn qualities of determination, mental strength, stamina – all these things were there, physical and mental stamina that he could withhold all troubles of the body, all tortuous things, so that was there.  But when He did not know He wanted to go back.  He thought, “I don’t know why the Jangama Sage made me to sit.  I never asked anybody to make me to sit for this tapas.”  But once He came to know, then He continued.  So like this, determination and understanding the technique of the Guru’s teachings, they are all the very important things, not the location, not the place. Inside a cave or under the tree or at home, anywhere you can adopt a peaceful atmosphere and start practicing.  And of course, as you said, His basic idea was to bring the meditation to every doorstep.  Nobody should think, “For this reason, I am unable to meditate and meditation is not for me because I am in the world.” That is not.  Anybody, anywhere under any circumstances, if only they can remain determined, sit quietly and practice, they can do the meditation.  Meditation can be done at home in your bedroom, in your puja room or in your drawing room.  Anywhere that you can find some peace, peacefully.  Of course, for beginners a peaceful atmosphere will be needed.  Swamiji also did not specify any particular time.  He said always in the instructions of meditation, “You can take out any convenient time and sit for meditation.”  So that’s what.  Then He used to explain sometimes when we asked, “Yeah, you should have taken sufficient rest, don’t feel sleepy; if necessary, get up and wash your face and again sit down.” So, like that only He taught us. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  There’s another quote that is given, “There are two paths for you to choose.  One is good which though tough and difficult to follow in the beginning, eventually brings happiness.  The other one is a bad path which appears easy and pleasurable in the beginning, but always brings misery in the end.”  Can Babaji talk about these paths that Swamiji is talking about here?

Babaji Maharaj: Yeah, He used to talk.  One path that is good always appears very difficult in the beginning because that path is of catching infinite things, to realize the infinite things is important.  The body belongs to the matter, and to catch hold of another matter is easy.  If you want to find some pleasure in a gold or in any eatable items, anything, so you can buy through money and give it to your physical body. But the mind will not be satisfied with any of the physical items.  So that is what He used to say, it can give rise to unhappiness, tension, fear, all these things will come, and dissatisfaction, everything will come.  So that’s why in the beginning it appears to be very fruitful and very enjoyable and very easy to take.  So, like that He used to tell.  And other things, infinite things are not easy. 

See, to meditate, the mind which is infinite, nobody knows what the mind is, nobody has seen it in physical eyes, the naked eyes; simply by thoughts and visions people talk, “My mind wants to do, my mind wants to go,” but nobody knows where is this located at all to find out.  It is there, it is you, yourself.  That’s what we keep telling, consciousness of existence is the clue.  But because it is infinite, in the beginning it can be very difficult, you will be bewildered; “What are we supposed to do by closing the eyes and just watching in between eyebrows, what are we going to achieve?  Which God will come and help us?  Are we calling a God or just watching?”  Based on different questions people have asked.  Somebody asked, “If we are silently watching, will not God think that ‘He is just watching silently and he is not doing anything, so I don’t have to go and grace upon him, I don’t have to bless him’?”  Like that the question was asked.  Then I have to explain, the infinite consciousness of existence is automatically connected to the Divinity.  The ultimate truth of your mind is what is recognized as the Divinity.  If your own mind is infinite, no naked eyes can see, but yet consciousness of existence, through that only you can recognize.  So the ultimate truth of this, imagine how powerful, how great it will be.  So to contact that, only through your mind only you can tap, knock the door of the Divinity.  Without that, you might be chanting any mantra, anything in any language – if your mind is not there, it is useless, it will not reach God.  So like that, it’s only through the mind that you can reach, because the nature of the Divinity is also just like the nature of the mind.  So, mind’s potency may be less, the potency of the Divinity is absolute.  So, that is what one needs to understand.  You don’t have to be confused; “What are we doing by silently watching?”  Like this many people get confused.  So for that reason only Swamiji insisted on sadhana always to understand the technique thoroughly and then sit, anywhere you can sit.  You don’t have to keep worrying, “O we don’t have a graveyard nearby.  Swamiji sat in the graveyard.  So now how can we meditate?  So, meditation is not for us.”  You don’t have to think like that.  You don’t have to go to graveyard and do meditation; sit at your homes, drawing room and do meditation. 

So, basic sentence, idea if we tell, Swamiji – “Do not give any excuse not to do meditation.”Anywhere, in any way, just understand the technique. To close the eyes, to concentrate your mind and sight you don’t need a safari suit, you don’t need a coat and pant, you don’t need to be a president of a country, you don’t have to be rich also, you don’t have to be academically educated.  Like that, just some examples.  So, anybody can close their eyes and just start watching in between eyebrows.  That’s why Swamiji never asked for any qualification.  Whoever came, whoever is interested He initiated them into meditation.  He never asked, “Do you have enough money to meditate or are you well enough educated to meditate?”  He never asked such questions.  Anybody – “You are interested in meditation, sit down, close the eyes, keep watching in between eyebrows.”  So that’s what one needs to understand.  That was the basic idea of Swamiji talking in that context for all these things. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  Baba mentioned this ‘do or die’ attitude that Swamiji had.  He was fearless in face of death.  Even death was not an obstacle to Swamiji.  How can we adopt this kind of ‘do or die’ attitude?  Does meditation give us this courage?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, definitely.  To start the meditation also, if you want to go for ultimate truth also, you need to have this attitude.  That will give you the inner strength.  Come what may we are not going to look back.  No reason should stop us.  Because if the body dies, then we are not there in the body.  So, whenever a body comes only we can do the meditation.  So that’s what He said to the Jangama Sage, “If it is twelve years, okay, no problem.  I will sit for twelve years.  Come what may, I will not listen to anybody else’s command, anybody else’s prayers, nothing.  I will sit for twelve years.  And I will not give up these twelve years.  I will not get tempted for anything of the world.  I don’t need the home, I don’t need the business, I don’t need to get married, I don’t need to do anything.  I will just do this one.”  So, hang on to it –  that determined discipline He used to talk.  “Once you pick up, it should be a question of self-respect.”  That’s what He told some of His disciples who was getting up and used to run away when He was doing tapas.  He used to tell, “This is a question of self-respect.  How can you get up and run away like that?  Total stupidness”,  He said. “If you die, it’s no problem.  Dying is no problem.  In the battlefield if you die, it is glory.  Everybody will understand.”  He tried to protect his country, safeguard his country till the last moment, till the last breath of his life and he got killed.  He is a martyr.  That’s what people will tell.  He’s not a coward.  But if you run away from the battlefield, then that person is a coward.  So that’s how when Swamiji made me to sit for tapas also, this is the sentence I heard.  “Either you come out as a yogi or your dead body must come out.” Means only death should stop you from doing this tapas.  “You must not go out for any reason.  So many temptations might come, pressures might come, people might be doing this, that trouble, trying to disturb the tapas;you must not get disturbed.”  That determination was the inborn quality of Swamiji.  Otherwise, He was not spiritually trained.  He had no knowledge of any scripture.  Nobody had taught Him any such “You have to be disciplined”, “You have to be like this”, “You have to be like this”.   He was like that and within a moment’s notice He got into deep meditation. “So, I have to watch in between eyebrows.”  He didn’t bother “Why I have to watch.”  That’s how Swamiji used to tell.  “The Jangama Sage touched with his thumb in between my eyebrows, asked me to concentrate my mind and sight and keep watching there.  And I went on watching.  He asked me not to repeat anything.  I did not repeat anything.  “Do not imagine anything.”  I did not try to imagine anything,  and samadhi came.”  Like that.  So, that means, see, samadhi occurring is not a difficult thing.  For a person to remain disciplined, determined is the most difficult thing.  Once you have these two, then ultimate truth, Self-realization, anything becomes quite easy.  You will not give up.  You will do that one.  Because you don’t have that courage, that discipline, all these things, you keep giving up, you keep postponing.”  That’s what Swamiji said.  “You will be postponing.  ‘I can do tomorrow.  I will do that day after tomorrow.’  Then you start thinking, ‘No, no, meditation is not for me.’”  Why meditation is not for you?  You are not interested.  You need to be interested.  That is, you don’t understand why you need the meditation.  If you are interested, if you understand why you need it, if you are determined, if you are disciplined.  That’s why I told you in the one hour, the moment I told, “Sitting in any comfortable posture, keeping your back and neck straight” – commands are being given by the master –“then gently close your eyes.  Concentrate your mind and sight in between eyebrows and just keep watching there.”  As you are trying to do this, the mobile rings.  Your friend is calling, your relative is calling, your somebody is calling.  “What are you doing?”  “O, I am trying to meditate.  I am in the class, you know? I have to do some meditation.”  “What is this meditation?”  “Later I can teach you also.  Let me learn.”  So, one hour goes like this, talking, talking.  And by the time he switches off the mobile, the one hour waking-up shloka is being chanted by Babaji.  So, that is the indiscipline.  That is the reason they are unable to meditate.  They should have that“Shraddha”, is the word – ‘yearning’.  “I want to achieve this.  I want to know myself.  What is that immortality?  What is that eternal existence of mine?  I must know this one.” 

If that is there, then things become easy.  Then you will put the mobile phone in airplane mode, silent mode.  Just as an example, how Swamiji taught us this determination or ‘do it, you should not give up’ – in today’s generation, nobody can understand this seriously, they will simply be bewildered and start shouting.  You see, years ago, after the first mentally challenged boy came, it was a bit successful.  He listened to us.  We taught him to lock, unlock, give water to plants.  Then Swamiji thought, one more devotee family was there, so that boy was also sent to us for me to look after.  For some time he was there.  But his liver was a total failure and he passed away.  Third day we were supposed to do Swamiji’s tapas purthi function in Dehradun.  Public gathering will happen, annadaanam, mass feeling will be done.  And next day was the previous day, previous day evening, so that boy was dead.  So, we had sent telegram to the family.  “What are we supposed to do?”  So, Swamiji said, “Until the family people come, you must keep the body.  Do not dispose it urgently.  Let them have a look.” But what happened?  The Committee people there in Dehradun, they said, “Keeping a dead body we cannot perform Swamiji’s tapas purthi function.  It is not possible.  It is a bad thing and it is, what you call it, lot of wrong things will happen, everything will have to be cleansed.  Ashram will be wrong.  So, Ashram needs to be cleansed.  Only then a function can be held.”  So, when they were talking, I was a little bit confused what to do.  Then I requested for a talk with Swamiji on the telephone.  Those were the days we had to book a trunk call; after some time the call was connected.  Luckily Swamiji came online when He heard about this.  So, I told Him, “This is what Committee is telling.  Swamiji, what should I do?  The dead body is there, can we do the function or not?”  Swamiji’s shot back,  He shouted, “Look, if you die,” He told me.  “If you die, tell the people to keep your dead body in a room, locked.  That can be attended afterwards.  First, attend to the public function.  Feed the public.  Let the mass feeding happen.  Let the tapas purthi function happen.  Once you are free from the function, then your dead body can be taken out and can be cremated or anything can be done.  Like that He went on.  For a while life I was bewildered.  But I understood quickly – how wonderful Swamiji is telling that determination.  That was the courage ‘Do or die’ that He had in it.  He spoke of that only.  If anybody can understand.  Imagine, will anybody accept these conditions today if I try to tell them?  So, that was how He was always ‘Do or die’ – means remaining disciplinedI will not discontinue.  Only if death happens to the body, then we cannot do any further.  In the battlefield, if we get killed, that’s it – our effort to safeguard our country has been done.  We have done until we were alive. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Could I ask Babaji about the term ‘Atma Sakshatkaara’ that Swamiji used rather than enlightenment, which you can be enlightened about anything, but this term ‘Atma Sakshatkaara‘ and the meaning of it, Babaji. 

Babaji Maharaj:   Swamiji insisted and spoke only of ‘Atma Sakshatkaara’, is the right word.  Because you see, enlightened, you become enlightened of – it can be anything, fill up the blanks.  You are very well enlightened about this world.  You are very well enlightened about humanity.  Though many places, synonymously people have used for Buddha, like Buddha was an enlightened soul, but Swamiji insisted ‘Atma Sakshatkaara‘; Atma and sakshat – ‘as it is’.  Aakaar means you sakshatkaar, you realize, you get to experience the existence of the truth of the Atman,you as the Atman.  Like that He said, that’s what He insisted.  It is Atma sakshatkaara.  “The one who would have obtained Atma sakshatkaara is a yogi.  Nobody else can be a yogi,” He said.  This He insisted.  Not that he is half yogi, full yogi, three-fourth yogi – doesn’t happen.  Like Ramana Maharishi also told, Swamiji said, “Either you are yogi or you are not a yogi.  If you have to be yogi, you should have obtained Atma Sakshatkaara.  What the nearby English word could be is Self-realization.  But don’t know whether it will be exactly like that or not; the Atma sakshatkaara word.  That’s why Swamiji insisted ‘Atma Sakshatkaara,’ not enlightenment in English, He used to pull us.  Not just enlightenment.  You can be enlightened of cooking a pulao.  So, that is not enlightenment of the Self.  So, that’s how. “He is an enlightened soul. So, what is he enlightened about?”  Like that Swamiji used to ask and talk.  So, that’s why He insisted only of ‘Atma Sakshatkaara’ and nothing else. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  On the topic of the ‘Atma Sakshatkaara,’ Babaji asked Swamiji at the Ashram that in the scriptures, the teachings, it is said that total Atma sakshatkaara is when the jivatma, the individual droplet of the real Self, merges with the real Self that is God.  And then Swamiji replied, “Look, if you merge in the space or if the space engulfs you, making you to merge in it, both are the same.  Combination of Supreme Consciousness and Energy together engulfed jivatma called Satyaraju and only consciousness remained as Shivabalayogi.”  CouldBabaji talk about this?

Babaji Maharaj:   So, because Swamiji at least once He spoke to us. A cameraman who was the secretary, he was the studio owner, he had come.  Swamiji asked, “Hey, you are taking my photograph in so many years.  What have you seen in my body?”  He couldn’t understand.  So, Swamiji sat on the dais in a lotus posture, asked, “You take from the right angle and one photo from the left angle.”  He showed “In the left side of my body Lord Shiva’s symptoms are there, amsha.”  The jata was also big and it was like a man, he-man.  He used to show “My left hand, that’s why it is very strong.  Right side is all the women features.”  So, He used to show His chest and He used to show His eyebrows also.  It is very sweet and little like a lady.  That’s how He used to talk, playing.  “My hand is also. If you touch my right hand, you will feel that you have touched a lady’s hand.”  And like this He used to tell.  “So, this is because, you see, Shiva and Parvati, they stood in front of me.  And after conversing with me, they entered my body.”  So, this I remembered.  Another day when I was talking to Swamiji in the midnight, when I asked the question, Atma sakshatkaara means when the jivatma or the mind or the consciousness of the individual imagined self, it merges, goes and merges in the absolute Self, then the Atma sakshatkaara it is known as. “Swamiji, You told that appearance of Shiva-Parvati, and they entering Your body; is that the final or anything further is there.?”  Swamiji said, “That is how it happened.  So, you are listening to only terminology; you are unable to visualize.  When I talk of Shiva-Parvati also, not a human figure of Shiva-Parvati, it is the absoluteness, which is the combination of the supreme energy and supreme consciousness”,  He said. “Now, if a droplet of the ocean falls and merges into the ocean, then also it is one with the ocean.  Or, the droplet is there and if the ocean engulfs the droplet, it flows on the droplet, so then it would have engulfed the droplet into it.  So, no more droplet exists there.  The only ultimate truth of the ocean exists there.  In the same way, if we merge in the Divinity, we as the individual soul, or the Divinity engulfs us, it is all the same.”  That’s what happened with Swamiji.  “The Divine came as Shiva-Parvati and I saw the ultimate truth of absoluteness all pervaded and it just engulfed me like that and there was no more individuality.”  Like that He explained to me; “That is how.  So, you should not just misunderstand from one side only it has to happen – from any side, either side.”  Like that.  I remember He also told, “Either that small baby comes on to the laps of mother and sits there, or the mother bends and takes the baby into her lap.  It is all the same,” He said that day. 

Question:   I was reading a quote from Swamiji that says, “You would not be able to achieve what you would want without a Guru.  Trying to do it by yourself is aham brahmasya.  Could You expand just a little bit on that?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, exactly, you see, like Swamiji also explained this thing, you would better understand.  You are walking.  You don’t need anybody else to tell which, where the path goes, because only one straight road is there.  But suddenly you come to a square.  One road goes to left, another goes to right, and one straight, you are confused, you don’t know.  There the expert person will come, “You have to go to right, then you will reach your destination.  That is what is Guru,” He said.  That’s what, just like mother is needed for a just-born baby, you need a Guru to guide, to make you understand the technique of sadhana properly, and what you are supposed to achieve.  So, that’s why a Guru is always recommended –Guru-Disciple relationship.  Then you get to the Atma sakshatkaara.  Otherwise, like the same word of aham brahmasmi, what Adi Shankara said, “Aham brahmasmi,” means “I am That – ultimate truth.”  Here you might be thinking your body as you, and start thinking if you think like that, this body as ‘I,’ this ‘I’ as ‘I am That’. That is not the truth.  The ‘I,’ which I was thinking to be as the ‘I,’ hitherto, is not that ‘I’; that ‘I’ is not me actually.  That ‘I’ is the brahman.  So, either way I do not exist at all, and there is no question of, ‘I’ getting into any ego, when ‘I’ is not there at all.  So, that is the thing.  That’s where the Guru comes in. 

Question:   Babaji, my question is as You just explained, when the consciousness merges with the Supreme Consciousness, sometimes the person, we have read or listened that the person takes rebirth.  So, if he has merged with Supreme Consciousness, how does that consciousness again take rebirth?

Babaji Maharaj:   Really, it doesn’t happen.  Once the merger has happened the individuality is lost.  It’s all speculations of the people of this world, and they keep, thinking, they keep imagining, they keep listening.  So, it makes an interesting topic for them, whereas in truth it’s not so.  Like for example, I will clarify more.  My Guru had attained Self-realization, Atma saskshatkaara, and He dropped His physical body.  He is one with the Divinity.  He is not existing as any individual item or any individual personality or any individual soul anywhere.  He has become one with the Divine.  Now, we always loved all devotees of Swamiji, we love.  If I remember Shivabalayogi’s name, Shivabalayogi’s form, I do puja, the same Divine can manifest in the form of my Guru and give darshan.  But that doesn’t mean that my Guru is a separate individual existence.  It is the same Divine, Divinity.  So, He doesn’t have to be reborn again.  His philosophy is there.  Whoever wants to do, they can pray to the Divine, pray to Shivabalayogi’s name, and do meditation. 

Same Questioner:   Like for example, we talk about the various forms of Lord Vishnu, who has taken eight or nine forms. 

Babaji Maharaj:   This is one thing I would…  just my opinion.  For long time, you all would know the differences between Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shaivites, and Vaishnavites.  Any personality who became popular, so both the groups used to struggle to own that personality.  So, this Rama is very popular.  Rama was a great Self-realized soul, and He did wonderful work on this earth.  So, He became so popular.  Rama and Krishna perhaps the most popular figures.  So, wanting to own that, “O Rama is nothing but our Vishnu.  Our Vishnu’s incarnation.  So, Rama belongs to us.”  A group claims that “This Rama belongs to us only.”  So, that is how these things have come up.  It should be simply left alone to the people and the God can come in any form.  Vishnu is not one personality who will be coming in different so many forms.  What’s the need?  If He is God, sitting in Vaikuntha itself, He can settle all the problems of this world.  He doesn’t have to create the problem at all.  So, like that if we go on asking, there is no end to these things.  That’s my opinion. 

End of Questions and Answers

End of Session