0:00 Intro
0:20 What is the difference between ‘I am’ consciousness and the consciousness of existence?
0:28 Is ‘I am’ consciousness a product of the mind?
2:31 If the bundle of thoughts the mind appears and disappears, we can’t be that?
4:12 Is there consciousness with no thought?
5:20 Is there a gap between the relative and absolute consciousness?
7:10 One single Self exists
10:07 If we stop identifying with thoughts, we identify with the Self
11:13 What is spirituality?
13:31 How do we stop recognizing things in meditation?
15:24 How does Divine resolve great souls to leave their worldly lives?
17:56 Is one mantra more powerful than another?
18:49 Space, beyond the imagined idea of space
19:50 Is the mind maya itself or does maya take place within the mind?
21:01 The mind as consciousness and energy
23:18 How to improve ability to stop naming and identifying things in meditation
25:17 How to face the fear of non-existence
28:13 If we get rid of the ‘I am’ then none of the problems can arise
32:16 It seems that consciousness and energy are at battle against each other, is that right?
35:40 Are thoughts projected and then witnessed by consciousness?
36:26 Why does the mind not want to be dissolved, and why do the tests increase in intensity as we progress?

‘I am-ness’ and the Self | Thus Spake Babaji – online Q&A, No.117
Recorded on 4 September 2022 with US participants

Intro

Thank you, Baba. Thanks for being with us today, as always.

Babaji: Thank you also for doing this.

What is the difference between ‘I am’ consciousness and the consciousness of existence?

Is ‘I am’ consciousness a product of the mind?

Question:

So, Baba, what’s the difference between ‘I am’ consciousness and consciousness of existence?

Babaji:

When ‘I am’ as the consciousness, a little bit thought about the ‘I’, the imagination about what the ‘I’ is is there. And the consciousness of existence; you are conscious that you exist, but without any definition or without any identity of the ‘I’. So, that is the difference. So, that’s why often I try to mention as ‘consciousness of existence’. Like I tell amongst millions of thoughts in your mind, one that is a reality, which is not an imagination is the consciousness of existence. Simply you exist, but it is neither the ‘I’ or somebody else – no such definitions are there.

Same Questioner:

So, Baba, the ‘I am’ consciousness then really is a product of the mind? There’s some slight little motion activity there in consciousness.

Babaji:

Definitely, as I have told always, even a realized master like us, to give a clue about the ultimate truth, to give a clue to the student, what is supposed to achieve, we have to use the nearest imagination that is possible. So, when I am the consciousness, so then that ‘I’ has been imagined of what it is.  Whereas actually it is beyond that also.

Same Questioner:

So, that’s why the mind.. you said the mind won’t give you peace. What we’re looking for is not in the mind, it’s in the silence of the Self.

Babaji:

Yes, exactly, you’re right.

If the bundle of thoughts the mind appears and disappears, we can’t be that?

Same Questioner:

So, that bundle, the human bundle of I am-ness and a body and a mind, you know, thinking, that appears, it wasn’t there and then it’s there. And then that disappears. So we can’t really be that.

Babaji:

Yes, because it was never there. Temporarily it has appeared because of an imagination. And soon when the imagination is withdrawn or it becomes quiet, then that also disappears. Like that, it was not there at all.

Same Questioner:

So, either the imagination had to exist forever, from eternity, or else it had to come into existence out of nothingness, which is the way I think you’ve described it.

Babaji:

Yeah, like I have told all the things that that is seen, including of a body and this universe, everything has an appearance value, but not existence value. Whereas the Self has the existence value, temporarily it may not appear to be there, but it is there.

Is there consciousness with no thought?

Same Questioner:

So, is there ever a point where there’s just consciousness with no manifestation, no thought?

Babaji:

Yes, definitely. It itself has not manifested, it was always there and it’s going to be there. You cannot remove or you cannot make it disappear at all.

Same Questioner:

How is it different then from Parabrahman, from the eternal existence?

Babaji:

That is the Parabrahman actually. Simply the terminology changes. In ancient times, they use it the Parabrahman just to tell it is beyond all illusions or all imaginations. There you cannot comprehend by an imagination. Imagination has to stop, then the truth is revealed. It is there, that truth is there, revealed means.

Is there a gap between the relative and absolute consciousness?

Question:

It seems like sometimes there’s a gap between pure consciousness or the absolute and the relative manifest existence, like where the seeds of consciousness, you know, they exist, but they haven’t manifested yet. Is there such a thing? Is there any kind of gap between the relative and the absolute?

Babaji:

A gap is there because an imagination has come. Means it’s always in dualities. In between these dualities, there is a gap. That is the truth, truth of the existence. So that gap is the real existence. In those two thoughts, because mind never stops into one thought, it starts producing thought after thought, thought after thought. So that’s when between the absolute and this consciousness of… because consciousness also is imagination, because it has given the consciousness of yourself or wherever it is applied it gives the consciousness of that thing. You are conscious of this world, like that it gets defined. So that’s why it is also not a final truth. So, between these two, there is a gap. That gap is the ultimate truth because there it appears to be there and it doesn’t appear to be there. It is there and it is not there – type.

Question:

 So, the gap is the ultimate truth.

Babaji:

Yes.

One single Self exists

Question:

Would you elaborate or explain what you mean by there’s just one single Self that exists?

Babaji:

The nearest clue for that is the space. Only one single space exists. There are no two spaces or twenty spaces or nothing like that. Though humanity while on this earth, they might have divided, ‘This is our airspace, that is your airspace’, something like that. So it is just a little bit of imagination so that we occupy this and you occupy that and you don’t come here and I don’t come there type of thing. But whereas the space actually if we try to see as the truth of existence, it is only one. Space cannot be divided and shown. Simply we have to imagine that this is mine and that is yours, like that. So that is how that one single self exists. That is the source of where the ‘I’ feeling is coming. So that is why it is always mentioned as a Self, one single Self. Either one single Parabrahman, one single divinity or one single Self. All these are same. For the same entity, different terminologies and at different eras, times, depending on the cultural background or the language that prevailed during that time. Like in ancient times of India, so they call for the ultimate truth as Parabrahman. So then, Atma-Sakshatkara, then, Atma is the Self. So that’s how it is. Atma is the one which has given rise to the idea of ‘I’, the consciousness of ‘I’, that is the Atman which has substantial existence value. So that is how things are defined, but it is only one. All these are all one. And like you keep ten or hundred earthen pitchers or any vessels – inside all those vessels it is the same space. Though it temporarily appears in a test tube the space as totally different, but in a round vessel the space seems to be different, but it is the same.

Question:

Mind.

Babaji:

Yeah, in the same way, the Self is one. Though there it is Agastya, here it is Shivarudra, but it is the same. Temporary appearance has made like that.

If we stop identifying with thoughts, we identify with the Self

Question:

So once we stop identifying just with the thoughts that arise in our mind and the imaginations, then we start to identify with that oneness, with our real Self. And everything is contained in that, so we’re everywhere, in everything.

Babaji:

So that is the one single Self. That is the truth. You see, amazing thing. Coming in touch with the brain, it is just one truth. The same thing assumes different personalities. And because it has created a brain also, coming in collusion with that brain, so it starts thinking differently also. So, difference starts appearing, difference starts appearing, though there is no difference at all.

What is spirituality?

Question:

Yeah, the whole universe. Baba, so, when I talk to a lot of my friends that are in the spirituality, there may be not heavily into meditation, or maybe they are, but they think of spirituality usually as gods and goddesses and different lokas, different spaces and other dimensions. And, that’s one idea, and that considered spirituality for them. But for me, and I think for maybe a lot of people that follow you and teachers like you, that really doesn’t have anything to do with spirituality. Or maybe spirituality is a different thing because we’re just interested in knowing the Self, finding the supreme peace of the Self. It’s not filled up with all these ideas and concepts and other things.

Babaji:

Yeah, definitely, that is not actually spirituality. In fact, I remember when I just then started coming to the States from 2004 or 2005, before that in India, spiritualism word was used always for spirituality also. Then I think somebody alerted me. ‘Baba in the West, spiritualism means about ghosts or any such things, different type of things other than humanity, other than this, that. So, spirituality word would be better for you to use’. So, from then onwards, I stuck to spirituality for sake of understanding. So, that is how it is, finally. Spirituality here means we try to become aware of ourselves as that infinite, boundless. That.

Question:

That’s what I’d say, ‘Look, spirituality is a different thing for me, you know’. Okay, we have several questions. We’ll take the first one here.

How do we stop recognizing things in meditation?

Question:

Pranam Babaji. Thank you. I’ve got two quick questions, please. So, the first one is one of the things you advise us all the time and you ask us to exercise caution is about judgment to say something. So, sometimes in meditation, I would say in my case more often than not, a thought comes in. So, let us say this is an image of a car, for example. The brain is immediately jumping at the bit to say, ‘okay, that’s a car that has come through’. I’m not particularly keen on identifying it, but somehow it comes. How do we actually stop this Babaji?

Babaji:

Because mind is habitual to identify, recognize, analyze and make a judgment. So, to stop that only, just watch and you need to develop such reverence, consider your master as a commandant. So, if you don’t listen to the commandant, you will be shot dead. Imagine that situation, then the mind will become scared and it will stop judging. ‘Oh, God, I don’t want to die. Let me just keep quiet. That is better’. It means that type of fearful reverence needs to come. So, then one would be serious and will just watch. So, suppose if I have the authority and everybody is sitting here, I tell, ‘But if all of you don’t just watch and if you start thinking, I’m going to cut off all your heads’, then everybody will be scared, ‘Oh God, no more identity. Nothing judgment. Let me just watch.’

How does Divine resolve great souls to leave their worldly lives?

Question:

I shall try harder. I shall try harder Babaji. Babaji, next question I have, so in this imagined reality there are some rules that have come across in this reality, that there are duties to husband, wife, children and so on and so forth. But the two things that I am confused about still, there are two at least great sages in modern times, like Lord Buddha and later on Raghavendra Swamy, for example. These great souls, there were forced to leave their family and become, I think, parents of the whole world. How does the divine resolve that.

Babaji:

You see, finally choice will be yours. Often, you might come to a point, what you call it as the ‘dharma sankata’. So, duty both are equally beautiful things that you would like to consider or think. Once you have adopted a way of life, you have to fulfill. But halfway through, if that is not working out, or you want to find the higher truth and you suddenly become aware that there is a higher truth to realize, utilizing the opportunity of a human body that you have obtained, then that also becomes your duty. So, these great souls, when they adopted, they said, ‘If at all I had to pay penalty for this, I will pay no problem. But self-realization is more important for me’. So, like that, they adopted and they went for that one. So, like when I was also leaving home, so, some of many relatives told, ‘You are leaving behind your mother and you are not looking after. You should have served her. That is the real dharma for you. Looking after a mother, serving a mother’. I told, ‘My brothers will look after, but if I had to pay a penalty for this, I will pay later. But instead of one mother, I might be able to look after so many mothers’. So, I had to take one decision. So, that is what finally, decision will be yours. So, then you just be ready and surrender to the divine. If anything has to happen, let it happen. I have chosen what I wanted to do. This is my right dharma.

Question:

Thank you, Babaji. Thank you very much, Pranam.

Is one mantra more powerful than another?

Question:

Namaskaram Babaji. Today my question is about mantras. Is it my monkey mind that thinks that if I recite Om Shivaya Shivarudrabalayogendraya as opposed to just, Baba, Baba, Baba throughout the day, does one help me to get more single pointed and silent in the end? Is one more powerful than the other, like saying Rama Rama versus Om Sri Ramaya Namaha? Because we come from this tradition?

Babaji:

In fact, any name, any mantra, provided you have the faith. It is your faith and your mind’s acceptance which can work wonders. Your faith in the name of Guru or the Lord, that will work wonders. You can chant any name, Rama, Buddha, Shivarudra, anything is fine.

Space, beyond the imagined idea of space

Question:

Pranams Babaji. You mentioned the terminologies are different, depends on the context. So when you said the undivided space, does Yoga Vashishta in his book, does He refer to as a ‘chidakasha’ as opposed to ‘chitakasha’?

Babaji:

Chidakasha means they try to refer to as where the mind is also infinite, in the same way this Akasha – just now you have imagined in the mind as Akasha, but actually in truth it is beyond that. Means you cannot identify. Just like I keep telling, either you call this room is filled with space or this room is wide with space. To tell that only they have told the chidakasha.  This also gives the supreme peace or happiness.

Question:

Thanks Babaji.

Is the mind maya itself or does maya take place within the mind?

Question:

Pranams Babaji. Nice to see you. Just had a very short question. You have already touched on it a few times, but would it be more appropriate to say that the mind is maya itself or does maya take place within the mind?

Babaji:

Mind creates maya, in fact. Mind itself is not maya. Because mind has the ability to be creative or to imagine. When it imagines a maya is created, means whatever it creates is not true. It’s just an appearance which has only appearance value. That is how, yes, mind creates maya.

Question:

So that means that it would have had to have existed before any type of maya?

Babaji:

Yeah, mind always existed. Only in the meantime the mind created a scenario which never existed which does not exist also.

Question:

Thank you, that deepened my understanding.

The mind as consciousness and energy

Question:

Baba, you’ve said that the mind is consciousness and energy.

Babaji:

Yes, combination of consciousness and energy.

Question:

So is energy what moves consciousness such as in having imaginations and thoughts or mind?

Babaji:

Yeah, because of the presence of energy, it spins the mind, then the creation happens. So, imagination.

Question:

Does it spin the mind or does it spin consciousness and the mind arises?

Babaji:

Yes, when it spins the consciousness, it starts imagining, it gets converted as mind.

Question:

Because we think of consciousness as a  kind of a knowingness or an awareness. So, the consciousness is watching and the energy is moving?

Babaji:

Yeah, you are true in some way. That’s why I have tried to explain, here, this is consciousness and consciousness means when you apply that onto anything, then that consciousness becomes conscious of that thing.

Question:

And so then that energy does that application and then mind arises as soon as it becomes conscious of that thing.

Babaji:

Yes, yes, that’s in my opinion.

Question:

Wow, that’s nice. Because also Baba, you’ve said that mind which is consciousness, but it’s really consciousness and energy.

Babaji:

Yes, to be precisely defining, it is a combination of consciousness and energy. They both are inseparable; they both are same.

Question:

Okay, that explains a lot for me.

How to improve ability to stop naming and identifying things in meditation

Question:

Pranams Babaji. I have a question about… almost seems like I have to trick my mind into being quiet to experience the peace in my meditation. And what I mean is, I’ve been meditating for several years and I’ve gotten better at arriving at a place where the chatterbox gets quiet and becomes silent for a while. And I’m impressed with how almost instantly I feel the peace in my mind, but also in my whole body. And this is a wonderful thing. But then this mind I have wants to name everything. And as soon as I’m experiencing that peace, my mind goes, “Ah, you’re experiencing the peace.” And then I’m out of it because I’m naming it. And how does one improve the ability to suppress that chatterbox from just jumping back in and naming it? We want to name the experience and say, “Oh, now you are quiet in your mind.” And ironically then my mind isn’t quiet.

Babaji:

 You have been given a mango in your hand. Just eat the mango. Don’t keep thinking, “Oh, this is mango”. Why to waste the time? Just go on eating the mango. So like that. When you have the peace, just enjoy that peace. Be at peace. Don’t keep thinking, “Oh, I have the peace” – no need for that. So you just have the peace. That’s it. So that comes in due course of time with the practice of just watching. You’re just watching. You will stop naming that peace also. You are at peace, but you don’t think that you are at peace.

Question:

Thank you, Baba.

How to face the fear of non-existence

Question:

So I’ve definitely been facing more fears. And I feel like I was looking at maybe a fear of that I don’t exist. Like that fear of non-existence. And I’ve been looking at, well, the mind has been looking at different body symptoms and focusing on them. And I think that’s just a distraction to keep me occupied with the body. So I guess it has to be with faith that I trust what you’re saying that we are the immortal soul. But how do we face these fears? How do we face them?

Babaji:

At that time you have to reassure you’re not that about which a fear is arising. And about what you are, there has to be no fear at all. Finally, try to think about this, ponder over this also. Because there is something, a problem arises for something always. If there is nothing, no problem at all. Like the old saying is there in Hindi, if there is no bamboo, no flute can be produced and no flute can be played. No sound comes out at all. So like that if you assure, somewhere, someday, and the mind realizes, “Oh, wonderful, if it is nothing”. But it is something also. You can call it something or you can call it nothing. That is why another thing, while teaching, we try to give an eternal or immortality, these type of terminologies. Because that is one of the major obstacles or a fear that humanity or anybody who thinks, faces about their insecurity, about non-existence. They want to exist. Like mind also wants to exist. It doesn’t want to die down. It doesn’t want to give up. But finally, if one can understand, if there is nothing, no problem. Like that, assure. Finally, assure that you are going to be there always where nobody can trouble you. No power, nothing. And because except you, nothing else is there. Only when a duality is there, there is a fear that that other relative object might trouble us. It is only you who exist.

If we get rid of the ‘I am’ then none of the problems can arise

Question:

So the bamboo, no bamboo, no flute analogy, example – could you elaborate on that? Because the bamboo could be that ‘I am’. And then that gives rise to the mind, which gives rise to everything. So I mean, ultimately, if you get rid of the bamboo, get rid of the ‘I am’, then none of the other things can arise.

Babaji:

Yeah, you see, when somebody has a property, there are two three claimants and some others’ eye on that out of greed, all problems arise. When you don’t have a property at all, nobody can trouble you. And that is the old story is there. Matsyendranath was a yogi. His disciple was the Gorakhnath, the Nath sampradaya, parampara of Indian philosophy. Gorakhnath was a great Self-Realized soul. Once Matsyendranath goes trekking and he finds a queen, he falls in love with that queen, they get married. And the queen realizes, my husband is not an ordinary person. He is a Realized person. He has done a lot of Tapas. So she controls him there. And the country is always very nice. And all the seasons, rains, everything keeps happening. So she, what she does, she orders her all army and servants, take care that nobody should come in search of my husband, Matsyendranath. Because she realizes, he is a Realized person, he will definitely have some disciples who will come in search of him. “Once my husband finds his disciple, he will go away from me. I don’t want him to go away”. Then finally, Gorakhnath comes and the story says, he comes with a musical group, quietly disguised, and he plays the dholak. And with the beats that Gorakhnath has, “Come, come now, you become alert”. Then Matsyendranath recognizes. Then finally, he wants to go. Then the queen also agrees. But before going, the queen gives a lot of gold and diamonds to her husband. If any trouble comes, this will be helpful. So in those days they had to go on trekking. So they both go on trekking, in the evening they had to camp on the outskirts of a town or a village. Then the master Matsyendranath asks, “Gorak, is there any fear of robbers or dacoits here?” He wonders, “No robbers or dacoits. Why should we be afraid of any robbers or dacoits? We don’t have anything.” “No, I just asked”, Matsyendranath says. So then they sleep. Next day again they trekking. Another place they come in the evening, they camp. Again, he asks the same question. That day he doubts. Why is the master asking about robbers and dacoits? Let me check when the master is sleeping. He checks the bag that he was carrying. In that all diamonds and gold, everything had been kept. “Oh God, this is the robber and dacoits problem”. So he takes all of them and throws it away. All gold and diamonds everything. And fills up with all stones, ordinary stone. Next day they trek and again in the evening they camp. The master asks, “Is there any fear of dacoits and thieves here?” He says, “No, I have thrown them out. All robbers and thieves have been thrown out of the gates. Nobody can touch you anything”. “Why are you telling this?” “Because you don’t have anything master. As long as you had that gold and diamond you had the fear of robbers and thieves. Now you don’t have them. You don’t have to be afraid that somebody will rob you.”

Question:

Thank you, Baba. Thank you for that story.

It seems that consciousness and energy are at battle against each other, is that right?

Question:

Yes, you’ve explained earlier that the energy portion of mind spins consciousness and hence mind and imagination. But it seems like consciousness and energy are always in battle with each other. By saying that, I mean the energetic portion wants to spin, consciousness and imagination appear, and consciousness wants to withdraw the mind and become completely quiet. So it seems that consciousness and energy have two different purposes and they’re always kind of in this little battle. Is that what’s happening?

Babaji:

Actually you can never make out whether consciousness doesn’t want and the energy wants. Because they both are same. Consciousness has energy. Energy has consciousness, like that. So that is how. Just like the sweetness and the sugar. Sugar has sweetness. The sweetness, sweet is the sugar. So sugar cannot avoid sweetness. Then it will no more be sugar. And sweetness cannot avoid sugar. It will no more have any value for its sweetness. It has to be something that is sweet. So that is how here also consciousness and energy are same. Not that one wants and another doesn’t want. They are not two separate entities.

Question:

But in their appearance they seem different, or is that only in the appearance world that the consciousness and energy seem different?

Babaji:

While talking when we use terminologies of consciousness and energy, or conscious is energetic, anything, so that sometimes appears to be different because of the terminologies. But either we have to invent one terminology like the Texas and Mexico, Tex-Mex, or something like that, you have to invent it. Conscio-energy, something like that. Then it would appear as one. It is actually one. No difference.

Question:

Is this existence of consciousness and energy being one and the same, is this which creates the jugglery of the world appearing to come and go, come and go and never really come and never really go?

Babaji:

When both becomes quiet, when the mind becomes quiet, so they both become quiet. Energy also becomes composed and cools down. With that consciousness, they both consciousness and energy, both cools down and become composed. That’s what happens. That’s why always the concept of Ardhanarishwara; they are not shown separately as a male or a female – half male and half female, just to explain. So the ancient sages have explained like that. But they are one. One personality. One figure, Ardhanarishwara.

Question:

Thank you, Babaji.

Are thoughts projected and then witnessed by consciousness?

Question:

Baba, since consciousness and energy are makeup-mind, does that mean that thoughts know themselves or are they being projected and then witnessed by consciousness?

Babaji:

What happens, consciousness has ability to create. It starts thinking. That is the imagination. So then thoughts start appearing.

Question:

Thank you, Baba.

Why does the mind not want to be dissolved, and why do the tests increase in intensity as we progress?

Question:

 Thank you so much, Baba. I just have a quick question on we talked about how the mind doesn’t want to be dissolved in a way. Why is that? Does the mind has a personality and is there a fear of insecurity? And along with that, why do the tests keep increasing in intensity? Like with your Tapas, you describe some very intense tests and why can’t the mind just quickly and powerfully turn back towards the Self?

Babaji:

You know, when one becomes addicted or habitual, then to take a U-turn becomes quite difficult. Then expert advice, help, all this things needed. That’s where the master comes. And master gives the technique. Just watch. Let anything happen outside world. Don’t try to connect your mind with that, is important. If you connect your mind to this world, then the mind spins and becomes habitual and it gets addicted. Even to enjoy an unhappiness also, it becomes addicted. It wants to be unhappy so that others can sympathize, like that it expects. So all these things are all, these are the things. If one becomes determined and just watches. That’s when in olden days, a caneing from the master was always recommended. But the modern day times, culture has changed totally. It’s not possible and the disciples get quickly annoyed with the master. The master needs to be very careful and afraid. So that is the time, era has changed. However, so this is the thing. If you can seriously remember that the master is standing on your head with a cane. If you think, he beats. If you think, he beats, if you think, he beats. You stop – the hand also stops.

End of Session