0:00 Intro
0:11 How does the practice of meditation compare with chanting of mantras?
10:22 Why do various teachers advocate concentrating the mind on various chakras?
19:07 What is the order in which one progresses on the spiritual path?
26:21 Does the duration of Tapas stretch until Nirvikalpa Samadhi?
27:12 Are the eyes crossed when watching in-between eyebrows in meditation?
28:05 Is it ok to tell the eyeballs to stay focused between two guidelines?
29:30 Focusing the vision further away is easier, but more intention is required to focus in-between eyebrows
30:20 How to deal with pain when sitting still in meditation for longer periods
31:09 What to do if there is no position that alleviates the pain in the body?
31:52 The dvaita philosophy says that God is always separate to the individual, it can never merge but can only strive to reach there
35:02 Why do people who worship different gods fight with each other?
38:00 With deeper practice of meditation does one lose body consciousness so attention is not on the pain in the body?
42:01 Of what value are mudras in spiritual practice?
42:40 Swamiji’s hands became deformed from so much extreme Tapas?
44:48 When you forget the stillness when back in the world after a retreat, is one still making progress?

Discourse: DSM Meditation Retreat 2024:

Day 1, Evening Q&A with Babaji

Question 1: How does the practice of meditation compare with chanting of mantras?

Babaji Maharaj: The silent meditation we teach, one of the highest methods practiced in ancient India, that’s one thing. Another thing, this is the technique that the Jangama Sage who appeared before my Guru, he gave this technique to my Guru in 1949 at the age of 14, when He was made to sit for Tapas, so this is one thing. And in this method, when you just watch, the mind slowly on its own becomes silent, gathers and becomes silent without the help of any external anchor. Thus, it would be easy for it to straight away, going introverted, merge with the Self eventually, finally, to become Self Realized. However, if you want to do a mantra, it’s no harm. You can do it before meditation or after meditation, continue for some time. All the mantras, any other type of sadhana helps you to achieve the focus, single pointedness of the mind. The mind which is scattered, by chanting the mantra you just try to make it single pointed, catch it. Then finally, you have to abandon that mantra, otherwise the mind can be stuck there instead of going introverted and towards the Self. Because when you chant the mantra – do the japa is what it is known as, when you chant the mantra, mantra japa – all your attention has to be on the mantra. Many people have asked many such type of questions, and many gurus would be recommending their own mantra as very powerful. Like, some might talk about Gayatri Mantra as very powerful, another Mrityunjaya Mantra as powerful or Rama as powerful, like that. But the power is not in the mantra. Power is in your mind. In your faith, in your ability to focus on the mantra when you do that one. So, that’s how the mantra becomes powerful. Because if you look back into the history, or legend, or any such stories of great sages, or devotional movements that happened about three to four hundred years ago, Mirabai, Tulsidas, and some in Karnataka area also, they all were great devotees of either Krishna or Rama or Mother Goddess, but they all achieved almost Self Realization. They rose to the level of highest Tapas, wherein their consciousness, for example, Mirabai, in her consciousness only Krishna was there, even Mira did not exist. She was “Krishna, Krishna” all the time; she got drawn so much to that level.

 So, that means the power is not in the mantra, but in the faith and devotion of a person. So, any mantra can become powerful to you. Kabir Das chanted “Rama”. So, if any mantra appeals to you, you can also do. And for information, I was initiated into a mantra by my Guru in a dream one day before I met him physically, actually, in 1971. It’s a very strange experience, difficult to explain, an inexplicable thing. Maybe either previous life connections or my own resolutions that I wanted, that such a thing came out. In the dream, it is pitch darkness. People are standing in the queue. I am also standing in the queue. Somebody comes and takes me. “Swamiji is waiting for you. Why are you in the queue? Come.” So, from the backside door, he takes me inside. Swamiji is sitting on an erected dais on a tiger skin. And in the dream, He asks me, “What do you want?” Perhaps by the practice of Adi Shankara’s teaching readings – He repeatedly talks about Jnana, Bhakti, Vairagya, any knowledge and the devotion and detachment. Knowledge of the Ultimate Truth, devotion to that Truth and detachment from the unreal – to the un-realness. So, I ask in the dream also, “I need Jnana, Bhakti, Vairagya.” Then the fun is, Swamiji gives a small stick in the dream only, telling “You can get anything that you want.”  Holding that stick, I tell “I want Swamiji only.” Then He takes back that stick, telling “If you want God, this stick is of no use. This can give you worldly things only, cannot give you God.” So, He breaks it and throws it away. Then He chants this mantra, and writing it on my tongue, OM SHIVAYA SHIVABALAYOGENDRAYA PARABRAHMANAYA.  “You chant this. Then you will come to me soon, and you will get everything.”

 So, when I got up, it was early morning. Maybe around 4 o’clock or so. I was already chanting. So, I had memorized and that came very naturally for me. So, it happened in such a wonderful, amazing way, inexplicably. So, that mantra became dearer to me, and I took in good faith, total faith. For me, my Guru’s name was everything. I didn’t have to chant any other name.  Though from childhood we were brought up through Bhakti Marga also, apart from meditation; chanting names of gods, singing bhajans, all these are very common for us. So, that’s how it happened for me also. So, this is the difference between meditation and mantra also.

This morning also, I was talking about Ramakrishna Paramahansa. He also did great Tapas, but through Bhakti Marga – He was a great devotee of Mother Kali. So, He always worshipped Her and used to lament that, ”One more day has passed and I haven’t yet seen my Mother.” He used to bang His head down to the ground like that, like a madman. Many people thought Him to be mad. But finally, some devotees, Bhairavi Brahmani, they all recognized, and some priests all sat down and discussed. They said, “He’s in a Mahabhava, it’s not a madness.” Mahabhava means the supreme feelings, ‘bhava’, towards Divinity. “So, that’s why He appears to be mad.” So, that was the status. Then, Totapuri Maharaj comes to Him in His life. Totapuri had practiced Nirvikalpa Samadhi, silent meditation for 40 years and achieved Nirvikalpa Samadhi. He tells Him, “I want to initiate you into Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is childish play what you are doing, this Mother Kali nonsense”, he tells. But Ramakrishna tells him, “No, I have to talk to my Mother, pray to her. If She permits, then I will come to you.” He goes inside the temple. Five minutes He prays, then comes outside and tells him, “My Mother Kali has permitted that I can get initiated from you for Nirvikalpa Samadhi.” He says, “Okay, ridiculous nonsense, what you are talking, childish thing. Anyway, come, I will teach you.”

 Then, he makes him to sit down, touching here. [points to the point in between the eyebrows] “You have to concentrate here without repeating anything. Sit down.” So, it was quite easy for Him to concentrate here. He had already been doing Tapas. But He opens his eyes and tells, “I am able to withdraw from senses of my mind in every way. But, Mother Kali is standing there, she doesn’t disappear. I am unable to remove Her. How will I go to Nirvikalpa Samadhi?” And the story says that Totapuri got annoyed, and there was a wooden idol of Mother Kali. And taking the sword, he cuts it into two pieces.  “Now your Mother Kali is dead. I have killed her. No more Mother Goddess Kali exists at all. Forget about Her.” And then he takes a glass piece and pierces in between eyebrows. And then He goes to Nirvikalpa Samadhi, giving up every imagination. Every iota of imagination. So, that is how it happened to Him. So, this is what is the final achievement; you have to become silent in your mind. Till then, you can always use mantras if you are fond of any mantra, if you are inclined. My Guru also, He was also a very unique master, He did not emphasize only formlessness. He said, “God can be both form and formless. You can adore, worship in any form, in any formless, in any name. Simply do not condemn other’s beliefs. So, everything is God. Everywhere is God.” So, like that only He told also. You can do a mantra before meditation, and then while meditating just do not combine that mantra – just silently you have to watch.

Question 2: Why do various teachers advocate concentrating the mind on various chakras?

Babaji Maharaj: You see, mind is not located at one place. Impossible; nobody has seen it in naked eyes, nobody can point out. You might be able to point out the brain is located here [points to the head], but not the mind. You cannot say “mind is here, mind is here, the spiritual heart is here”. Like that, so many people, different teachers have spoken about it. Symbolically, they would have spoken of consciousness, Kundalini, because both Kundalini and mind are not different. They are the same substance. One portion which has gone into the body, a coiled energy. that they called it as Kundalini Shakti, means ‘coiled energy’. Mind – another portion with imagination scattered into universe outside – that we call it as mind. Compared to Kundalini, mind is more powerful. It is spread widely. Always a seeker is taught first to concentrate the mind, gather the mind. Then mind automatically lifts the Kundalini body, consciousness also. And when they both become one mass, then gets detached from the brain, then the seeker, while doing Tapas, feels as if they are here. [touches the crown of the head] This place is known as sahasrara kamala, means ‘thousand petals lotus’. But there is no thousand petals lotus. Symbolically, the terminology has been used by some teachers to tell when consciously you feel you are here, means mentally or consciously, you are blossomed, your mind has regained the form of pure consciousness, and it is ready to go to Samadhi. So, while telling, teaching would have mentioned, just like a thousand petals lotus blossoming, your consciousness is also blossomed. It is totally purified. No iota of imagination is there. That’s when it is detached from the brain’s reflections.

 So that’s how they mentioned different chakras, muladhara. See, muladhara, usually in a simpler terminology, based on the sex, the person’s imagination would be “I am a man” or “I am a woman.” That is sitting so strongly, that consciousness. So, one would have forgotten themselves as the soul, Infinite Consciousness. That’s why they call it muladhara, ‘the base’. From there, if that consciousness rises above, then you lose… like Adi Shankara talking in Na Cha Vyoma Bhumir; “I am neither this nor that. I am neither the guru nor the disciple. I don’t have mother or father. I don’t have this or that. I am that Shivoham, that Shiva, that Supreme Consciousness”, He talks.

So, like that, different chakras have been mentioned. If at all some teacher wants you to focus on some chakra, it means you have to imagine some place here [points to different parts of body]. See, by eyes you cannot turn totally downwards and watch like that, not possible. When you close the eyes, you imagine as if your consciousness, what I talk about ‘the consciousness of existence’ that you have, you can imagine it coming from the source here. [gestures along the spine upwards] It can come from here. If you just watch it here, [points to in between the eyebrows] it is here only – like that. So, if at all they ask you to concentrate, it is first so that you gather your mind to make it single-pointed. Then it has to completely detach from the brain finally. Like this place [points to in between eyebrows] is known as the agna chakra. Perhaps the ancient teachers mentioned this as the ‘commanding circle.’

 When you are able to gather the mind a hundred percent, from then onwards you can be the master of your mind. Till then, the mind makes you to dance to its tunes, whatever it runs away you go further. Because this is the closest to the brain, when they did Tapas – this is our experience also in Tapas -when you gather the hundred percent, till then you have to put effort with willpower holding the mind there so that everything comes there. Once it is there, a mass, the body conscious also is lifted, then it gets detached from the brain’s clutches.

‘Clutches’; I use the word instead of ‘reflection’ sometimes because this consciousness is forced to be into the reflections. It gets, it takes it and registers as a reality. Whatever the brain tells, the mind with good faith believes. Whereas not necessarily be. Also, I have told, brain can be a very good servant but a bad master. You should be using the brain. Not that the brain should use you. Like the servant should not use you, you should use the servant. This example also I have given: you are in your bedroom, somebody knocks on the door, you send your servant, “Go and see.” The servant goes and comes back. “Sir, one of your friends came, I just drove him away, I asked him to get out.” That is not the job of the servant. Servant should have come and told, “A person is standing, wants to meet you.” Then you are the one who will decide whether you would like to meet or not. That is the master and servant relationship. The brain has given you the consciousness of this world. That is a good thing. The brain can tell, “This is it, this is it”, then you have to apply your wisdom. What is reality? What is unreality? What is useful to you? What is not useful to you? What is impermanent? What is permanent? Like these things. So all these things become possible when the mind becomes totally purified. So, this is briefly about the chakras that we are talking. There are really no chakras there.

 Chakra cleansing also has been spoken by many teachers. Chakra cleansing is nothing but the purification of the mind, consciousness. Mind has to regain its form of consciousness and in that process the body consciousness also becomes purified. Until you have the consciousness of yourself as the body, that is considered spiritually as impurity, means ignorance. So the consciousness has shifted. And until the mind has all thoughts and visions which are not useful for you to realize your real Self, they are all impurities. Cleansing this – only when you just watch, you can cleanse them. It is not through water, not through gas that you can cleanse this consciousness. It is Infinity. So that is what you need to understand. Many students I have come across, they have discussed the things with me about chakras. They have misunderstood by their guru’s teachings that chakra cleansing has to happen. And they get into an illusion that they are stuck into a particular chakra and how to come out of that.

Really no such thing happens. Simply in your imagination if you are stuck, that imagination is making you to get stuck into that imagination. Once you overcome that imagination, you release yourself. You make an analysation and a judgment, so you are stuck there with that judgment. You are getting involved. That becomes your mental attitude also. To release yourself, you overcome through meditation, so your mind becomes purified and you are liberated. So these are some of the points of chakras, mind, consciousness, what has to happen.

Question 3: What is the order in which one progresses on the spiritual path?

Babaji Maharaj: ‘Watch’ is the first point of meditation. Your mind has both thinking capacity, watching capacity. Like you come across a beautiful scenario, dumbfoundedly you watch and you fall in love, you are dumbfounded. Things become inexplicable. Means mind has stopped there by watching. At that time it stops analyzing, it stops thinking about anything. A beautiful scene can become simply inexplicable. Like that, meditation’s first technical point is your ability to watch. That’s what you have to practice. Keeping the eyes closed, using the eyeballs – the eyeballs are one of the most strongest sensory organs. If the eyeballs can be fixed and you just watch using the eyeballs, here you have to understand: when we ask you to watch in between eyebrows, we are not giving you any other target what you are supposed to watch, nothing. You just watch. I’m not asking you, “You have to watch this god, this name,” nothing. You just watch there, you are using the eyeballs [signals the area in front of the eyeballs]. As you watch, then the mind gathers there. All the mind comes here when you are successfully able to hold the eyeballs.

That is why Patanjali has spoken four important reasons why you are unable to go into samadhi: The movement of the body, inability to keep it stable. That is what first you achieve. At least for one hour you should be able to sit comfortably without moving.

 The next one is the eyeballs and eyelids should not move, steady. The eyeballs constantly keep moving. That’s what gives a jerk to the mind also. And then you get confused going after the mind. So, if you steadily watch, then you achieve that one. These things will happen only through your effort. The guru guides you, tries to inspire you, keeps repeatedly talking, “This is what has to happen, this is what has to happen!” That is the right guru, right yogi – insists for these things.

 And then the third one, irregular breathing. But if you steadily watch the eyes, the breathing becomes smooth. And it appears to be slow as if non-existent, but it has to go on. You cannot stop the oxygen supply, that’s very much necessary. You cannot starve yourself of oxygen. But it should go smoothly, mechanically. Just like when you are driving a car, every time you cannot afford to see the brake, where it is and then brake; by then you would banged the car somewhere. By practice; your attention is on the road, you are driving, by practice you press the accelerator, you press the clutch, or you press the brake, whatever it is. Like this, your attention has to be here. By practice, it becomes smooth.

 And fourth one, mind itself. Because of its habits of imaginations, it has become so preoccupied. So, like this sequence, one by one, slowly, skilfully you have to achieve. Then you come to the actual watching you would have achieved. If you steady the eyeballs, then it stops moving. Then you will see your mind also settling down. Then both eyeballs start coming towards one direction, slowly. Then it withdraws the mind also. Like that, you should be able to continue. That one hour is recommended. If you achieve this one hour just watching, that is the real meditation. Then slowly, you can try to increase the duration. If you are able to do eight to ten hours like that; keep it quiet, then you are able to do Tapas.

The Tapas word is used so that you once for all burn out all habits of the mind, all imagination habits, all analyzing judgments, everything, silence the mind. That’s when it regains the purest form of Consciousness. So this is the process, but slowly, one by one; you don’t have to worry about the Tapas, “Whether I will be able to do it before I die” – you must not worry about this, because by worrying, you will waste more time and energy. We give the example of the top of the mountain. First day itself, you don’t have to worry about the top of the mountain. One by one, step by step, slowly, slowly go. One day, you can be on top of the mountain by practicing, by practicing. See, we were fortunate. From childhood we had the inclination, the circumstances, situations were available, like chants and the bhajan singing, music, listening to the devotional music, all these helped us to keep our minds less and less violent.

What I mean by non-violent means, less analyzing, less judgmental. Means, by habit, I used to be… one example I will tell: In the society, generally people try to analyze about others. If you have seen everywhere in every age, today is seventy years – at the age of ten, fourteen with our classmates, sometimes if I had gone to watch a movie by taking permission from our parents, then only we used to go for a movie in our times; “This is worth watching. It is spiritual. You can go and see.” Then we would go. When we were out, our friends used to keep commenting about others. Say, for example, a boy and a girl are sitting. They would talk nonsense about them. I never liked it. I said, “They could be simply a brother and sister, anybody. Why are you talking that nonsense? Why are you trying to make judgments unnecessarily?” So, like this, I never liked to be judgmental about others. We don’t know. They are good or bad. Why should we bother so much? They might be good. We might be thinking that they are bad. If we start thinking they are bad, they will appear as bad. If we think they are good, they will appear as good. Years later, I read in the Yoga Vasishtha, Vasishtha talking, “The mind can play such havoc of imagination on yourself, you might be fooling yourself: a friend might appear as a foe, a foe might appear as a friend.” That’s what psychologically can affect you, Vasishtha talks. So that’s what you have to be careful of and go according to this sequence. Then you can achieve, slowly.

Question 4: Does the duration of Tapas stretch until Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

Babaji Maharaj: Yes, that is the final. No iota of imagination should be there. Not even the imagination of God also should be there. Not imagination of the Divine. In Bhakti Marga, you use the Divine’s imagination so that your mind becomes single-pointed. Due to imagination, mind has gone out of control. Using the same imagination, you try to make it single-pointed. Then you have to overcome for the final merger and Self Realization. So, no seer and seen. Duality finishes once for all, only one single Self exists. That has to be achieved. Until then you have to do.

Question 5: Are the eyes crossed when watching in-between eyebrows in meditation?

Babaji Maharaj: The eyeballs won’t cross this point, actually, it stops in here. [points with both index fingers in between the eyebrows] This is the last point where it comes. That’s like the vanishing point. When it comes, your vision stops here. And that duality vision, you and something that you are watching ends there. Then your mind starts going introverted. You don’t have to force it, skilfully, slowly you have to practice. Then slowly it settles down in composure. Not to force, but be firm. ‘Firm’ and ‘forcing’ are slightly different. ‘Forcing’ is you are in a rush, abruptness. ‘Firm’ is you will achieve that, you will not give up.

Question 6: Is it ok to tell the eyeballs to stay focused between two guidelines?

Babaji Maharaj: By trying to imagine, all sorts of things start coming. From two guides to two chopsticks and two other things, unnecessary things come. Then that can give rise to further imaginations and you lose the grip over eyeballs, that’s how it happens. Instead, just really watch the front portion [signals the area in front of the face]. Even first you don’t bother about the central point, you just watch the front portion. Without bothering whether it is light, darkness, any thought or no thought. Then slowly on its own it will come. In life always, a certain point you have to give an effort, then allow it to happen. That goes automatically. Just like you have to press the accelerator, then allow the vehicle to move. It will move. That is like an automatic process, Automatic Divine Activity. But the pressing is your effort. But only that much – not too much, not less than that. You have to practice how much you will press the accelerator. So, like that here, you just watch it peacefully, composed but firm and allow it to come together. You don’t bother too much. Otherwise, you will end up with chopsticks.

Question 7: Focusing the vision further away is easier, but more intention is required to focus in-between eyebrows.

Babaji Maharaj: Vision appears longer means, still the eyeballs have not yet come to the central point. That’s when the longer vision appears. As the eyeballs start coming, the vision comes closer. That’s what you have to observe. However, if it’s easier – that longer vision also, you just watch. That’s what I’m trying to tell. Even if the eyeballs are there, just watch the front portion. The same thing, I think, you are trying to tell – you are able to watch here [points to a place further away] instead of here [points to in between eyebrows], if that’s easier, so watch like that. After some time, on its own it will come here. Give some time, stick to that without thinking anything.

Question 8: How to deal with pain when sitting still in meditation for longer periods? 

Babaji Maharaj: Practice!  One thing is practice. However, sometimes if you are not too used to sitting like that at all, then, for example, after 30 minutes you might start feeling the pain. So, for some time it’s okay to adjust the legs a little bit and move for one minute or half a minute, trying to keep the focus here [points to in between eyebrows] a little bit and then you can continue for another 30 minutes. Like that you practice. One day you will be able to sit comfortably for one hour. If necessary, you can sit on a chair also if that is more comfortable for you. Or you want to practice on the ground also, it’s no problem.

Question 9: What to do if there is no position that alleviates the pain in the body?

Babaji Maharaj:  These things, if the back or chest, like that if you feel heavy, you can keep yourself to the wall also with a small cushion and keep trying to be

straight like this, then slowly it will be alright. Legs, if it pains you can change the position and bring it back, and then you can continue for some time until you are comfortably used to it. In spite of all this if it is still difficult, then try to sit on a chair and do it. But try to keep the back and neck straight as much as possible.

Question 10: The Dvaita philosophy says that God is always separate to the individual, it can never merge but can only strive to reach there.

Babaji Maharaj: Actually, there is no one definition what the truth is. In our experience we have high respect for all the three philosophies of Dvaita, Vishishtadvaita and Advaita. When you begin, you are still a droplet, your imagination. You need an anchor of ocean to feel secure. That is the concept of Divinity, God – you and your God. As you go on progressing whether through Bhakti Marga, through Dhyana Marga, your consciousness gathers on that; only that thing starts staying. Even if you want to be on the devotional path; say you are fond of one particular form of God and you fall in love, slowly it must raise to that level – one day only that thing is there, and you do not exist in your consciousness. That’s when slowly the merger automatically happens unknown to you. Until then that is not the right Bhakti Marga. When you maintain ego of separateness, then you are likely to misinterpret the truth of existence.

So, when the sadhaka is doing that, when the mind gathers and starts going introverted, you feel that some inner strength power is sucking you back. That’s when you realize, “I was nothing but an amsha of that Truth that is Vishishtadvaita” as Ramanuja said. So then finally when merger happens, “Neither me nor that”; when there is no devotee, no God. So, everything vanishes, one single Self that stays. So, all the three have equal respect in this world but those who try to tell “This is the only way”, they have not realized anything in the true sense, in my opinion.  They are narrow minded people who insist “This cannot be that, that cannot be this”. But you have a choice. You want to be in the Dvaita Bhava, as long as you want you can maintain that one. But one day as you maintain, sincerely if you maintain, your consciousness will merge into That, automatically it gets sucked into That. Like, I was talking: for Mirabai there was never Mira that existed, only Krishna existed in her consciousness. She was so devoted to Krishna. She saw in everything as everything only Krishna. So, these people whom you are talking, also they will agree that their God is all pervaded. They won’t say that their God is only here and not there. When it is all pervaded, how can there be a second entity that exists?

Question 11: Why do people who worship different gods fight with each other?

 Babaji Maharaj: Yeah, we have heard a lot in historical times also. Shaivites, Vaishnavites fighting with each other. Vaishnaviteswill tell, “We will burn you and take that vibhuti”. And in their grey gate’s grill also they will keep the grills straight – Iyengars. And if it is Shaivites, they will keep the grill sideways only, they won’t keep straight because they don’t want the naamams [Vertical V shape of sacred ash that Vaishnavites apply to their foreheads] [laughs]. So, that type of thing. So, they are all narrow-minded people who have not understood the actual truth. There is no difference. All the great trinities or great acharyas who came, and what they interpreted, they told, the followers would have misunderstood about these things. That is how historically a lot of things have happened,  fights and in-fights. Like I have read the sthala purana of Tirupati also. When that idol was found, so there was a lot of arguments between Shaivites and Vaishnavites, “This is Lord Shiva.” “No, this is Lord Vishnu’s”. Then, it says Ramanujacharya, somebody was there, some leader. They said, “We will keep both the ornaments of Lord Shiva and Vishnu in the night and lock the idol in a room. And if it is Vishnu, He will take His ornaments. If it is Shiva, He will take His ornaments. They kept a damru, trishul, everything and the shanka-chakra–gada-padma, mace, everything they kept. And the guards left there. And the story says this much: next day morning when the king and everybody came, the idol had been adorned with the Vishnu’s mace and padma, everything and that was decided that it is Lord Vishnu’s idol. So, what we can guess as educated people, guards would have been bribed somehow, the Vaishnavites had an upper hand, they went and put the shanka-chakra–gada-padma, and then finally made it. The Shaivites failed in that one. So this type of thing also has happened historically. Funny though, but finally that’s it. So for us, Shiva and Vishnu are no different, the same thing. I give examples usually for this thing. It is the same woman: The son tells father, “Father, she is not a wife, she is only the mother.” The father tells, “Idiot, she is a wife, she is not a mother.” Father and son are fighting about the woman.  “No, it is a mother.” He says, “No, it is a wife, she cannot be a mother.” Can it be? She is mother to the son, she is wife to the husband. That’s what we have to understand about God.

Question 12: With deeper practice of meditation does one lose body consciousness so attention is not on the pain in the body?

Babaji Maharaj: You see, finally, when you rise to the level of Tapas, somebody loyal to you needs to look after your body. At that stage, say you are sitting for 10 hours or 18 hours if you are able to, the body is likely to get affected. That’s what happens. See, all the time we were lucky. During my Tapas time, Ambaji looked after me like a mother. A little bit of food she always fed me with vegetable soup, some kitchari, watery kitchari type. So like that one, she was there all the time to look after. And another couple also who live in the ashram, Dehradun, they were also trying to help a little bit. Like that the help was there, and they were massaging my fingers also. So this could not happen to my Guru and He was more stubbornly sat also.

Whereas He taught me this point of, “No need to be stubborn and force, but be firm.” These two things are different. He said, “I was a child”, Swamiji frankly used to tell, “I was a child, there was nobody to guide me. I just went on sitting firmly because the villagers used to make fun.” In villages often, ignorance may give rise to such opinions. He used to have a glass of milk in the midnight when He came out of Samadhi. And there is a misconception that in ancient times, thousands of years the sages would sit like that without having any food at all. They made fun and then Swamiji gave up milk also for some time. But the other saint, Tapasviji Maharaj, Vishnu Dhama, who came and met Him, he used to have an ashram in Kakinada. He came to know about this and he came to Adivarapupeta and woke up Swamiji from Samadhi, advised Him; “Do not make your body a circus item. People of this world are ignorant. They don’t know what the truth is. Some amount of food must be given so that you can digest. When you are sitting, when you are not physically more active, little bit food needs to be given whichever way that you can digest. Don’t starve. After some time the body will fall down, so it will be useless. You cannot help anybody, and you may not be able to achieve a hundred percent of merger also.” You need to look after, so that becomes necessary. But the first day itself you don’t have to bother too much; that will take a long time. But first you practice at least one hour sitting. That can see you through a long way. Your mind can change so much, and it can become so mature. It can give you so much of confidence. Slowly, few hours, few hours. And intermittently you get up and give some time. Like that only you can do that.

Ma Ambaji: You know I kept Baba padlocked. Yes, I used to lock outside His room. Five years padlocked inside, in one room with a bathroom, that’s all. He may not even have remembered what I used to give, what I used to do, what I was…

Babaji Maharaj: Because in those days to remember a particular date or a day also was difficult. Only when she told “This is the day”, otherwise I had lost the time concept at all when the mind was totally becoming quiet and quiet. So, she was very loyal – even if anybody gives you a poison, telling “This is poison” also it doesn’t strike or reverberate in the mind. You might simply take it. So, somebody devoted. That’s why I even call her a mother.

Question 13: Of what value are mudras in spiritual practice?

Babaji Maharaj: Different mudras definitely have. There was a book some time ago, some person had written. But generally, for general understanding, the nervous system comes through when you are pressing. That nervous stretch can happen. So, that way certain mudras would be definitely helpful when you are meditating. But even a simple way also is good. Or you are pressing like this, different fingers, sitting at different times can be helpful. The nervous stretch happens.

Question 14: Swamiji’s hands become deformed from so much extreme Tapas?

Babaji Maharaj: Yeah. It joined like this. That’s what I was trying to tell. He couldn’t straighten this. For some time, this was locked also. Then after great massage – Tapasviji Maharaj gave some oil and massage; at least the hand came out, but fingers remained like this throughout His life. It was totally joined.

Ma Ambaji: It was so funny, Swamiji’s hand never got open because they locked.

Babaji Maharaj: All His fingers were like this only. [showing fingers at right angles at the knuckle]

Ma Ambaji: Every night for half an hour we used to do Baba’s joints massage: hands, knees, ankles.

Babaji Maharaj: I did some yoga exercises also.

Ma Ambaji: Every night we used to massage Him on His joints before He could go back.

Babaji Maharaj: I had watched my master, I thought as much as possible I should try that I don’t depend on others for this body’s movement. I should try to be independent otherwise it becomes difficult to work. See, unknown to me, when I thought, times have changed. During my Guru’s time, He hardly attended even a telephone also. But today I have to attend: there is a cell phone, WhatsApp messages come, occasionally some calls come. Somebody is dead and they want a blessing, a prayer. We attend to them, console, “Please convey condolences. We will pray for the departed soul.” Like this we have to be in touch. And email is another thing. Every day, early morning, four o’clock I attend thirty to forty emails; two-two lines quickly I try to type and write and prayers, blessings we send, any little bit of counselling needed, spiritual questions are there – every day it comes from different parts of the world. So, for all these things body, limbs need to be active and good. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for me. I wouldn’t have been able to attend to these things.

Question 15: When you forget the stillness when back in the world after a retreat, is one still making progress?

Babaji Maharaj: Definitely, some amount of progress keeps happening whenever you sit and do meditation at home also. It may go unnoticed – because of lack of confidence you may not notice often. Means the things like miraculous things, or the Grace of the Divine, it keeps happening to every life. But when we are preoccupied in the world too much with a lack of confidence or always we have a negative attitude, then we fail to notice such things. So, one needs to overcome and develop and cultivate positive attitude always.

That’s how in Bhakti Marga also we developed ourselves since childhood. Like for example, positive attitude means whatever we felt like, we used to pray to God. “Please, this should be all right, that should be all right, this thing…” – childhood things in Bhakti. But not that always everything happened as we wished. But we never lost confidence or faith in God. “Though I wanted it to happen like this, if it has not happened, maybe it’s the Grace of the Divine. Divine has better things in His store for me.” Positively we used to think like that one and assure ourselves. That helped us to sustain ourselves onto the path of Bhakti, Shraddha. Shraddha means total devotion. So that is what we try to teach you all; any time you write emails also I try to write. So the rest you have to cultivate, you have to take that one. I can give you the stick of confidence. You have to catch hold of it. You are the horse, I can take you to the river, but you have to drink the water. That’s necessary. If you understand, be positive always, nothing happens. You know, you were hesitating – just for example of education -hesitating to come. Finally, you decided to come. Things are going all right. It will be all right. You just think that it’s all right. Otherwise for every one mosquito we will be scared in this world. Let 100,000 mosquitoes come. No problem. Average Indian is very immunized like this. Even during the time of Sars, you remember? The whole world was so much worried, but in India people were coming and going in the airport also.

Ma Ambaji: AndI think in our culture we get taught from the childhood. If you are scared that this roof is going to fall on me, then you will never sit under any roof. So, in general in India, in our practice from the childhood we get taught not to worry too much, not to think too much. Have faith, have confidence in the Divinity around you and that will take care. In fact, That is only taking care of everything. If you think about it, we are nothing. Everything is automatically happening. Everything is around happening and we just unnecessary take.

Babaji Maharaj: Gradually you get used to it. That’s how it is.

End of Session