0:00 Intro
0:20 How has consciousness arisen within unconscious matter?
7:19 Is consciousness beyond the experiences of thoughts and sensations from our sensory organs?
9:00 Are there different individual consciousnesses within the one consciousness?
16:11 When the mind is still, you become aware of the real Self, the pure consciousness?
17:43 Is the instruction to ‘just watch’ in meditation the same as being aware of that consciousness of existence?
19:21 When the mind is totally quiet, does one experience anything in that state?
20:30 Many people are scared of no longer experiencing anything.
25:35 Is the goal of evolution of living organisms to develop a brain intelligent enough to realise that we need to become peaceful?
28:30 Does anything exist outside of our consciousness?
35:13 Do we have to stop making assumptions about anything?
39:48 What happens to the consciousness at the time of birth and death?
40:32 Within scientific community it is said that, “no science achieves maturity without a system of measurement.” Will science have to change in order to understand consciousness?
42:25 By a tiny part of Parabrahman’s imagination, the world appeared as his dream?
44:07 Is it important to think of consciousness in Indian yogic terms?
46:48 What does Babaji mean by the consciousness dilutes from birth to birth?
48:16 Is science as it exists now, also a product of imagination, creativity?
49:50 What is happening to the consciousness in someone who is mentally challenged?
51:50 What is the difference between the state of unconsciousness and pure consciousness?
53:29 Can quietness of mind take us to understanding the consciousness?
55:02 If I pray, does my individual consciousness link to the all-pervaded consciousness?
58:23 Is consciousness the same as Atma?
1:00:38 When a Self Realised master drops the body, are there no longer any thoughts?

What is Consciousness? | In Quest of Truth – Q&A with Babaji, No.206

Recorded on 30 November 2024 with worldwide participants.

Question: Pranams, Babaji. Thank you, Baba, for being with us again today and so patiently answering our questions each week. Baba, today’s topic is ‘What is Consciousness?’ So, the first question. A question scientists and philosophers at the moment seem to be grappling with is, this planet earth, this ball of rock that’s spinning around the sun, it seems that suddenly amongst this seemingly unconscious matter, suddenly there’s arisen an experience, a feeling from the inside, what it feels like to be this matter. So, the question they have is, how has this consciousness arisen within non-conscious matter? Could Babaji give some kind of insight into this, how it’s happened?

Shri Babaji: In my opinion, by my observations during tapas and what my Guru Swamiji used to talk, consciousness has not arisen from the matter in any way. It has always existed independently. Even when they wouldn’t have had any matter at all, perhaps. So, thus I would like to tell, in the body also, the consciousness is totally independent of the brain. It’s not a by-product of the brain. It hasn’t arisen because of that. Only one observation is that this consciousness is able to be in touch with the matter or universe, what we call it, either way, only through the help of brain. This is one important thing. The brain is an amazing biological organ, like a computer, computer or artificial intelligence, what we all talk. Means somebody needs to use this brain. That is the consciousness which has to use this brain.

Another point what I have observed, as we all know, supply of blood and oxygen is very vital for survival, existence of the brain. It’s so important, oxygen; even for a few minutes if it remains without oxygen it can die, finished. Along with that, it’s important that the consciousness also gets applied to the brain so that the brain is active. That means, the consciousness can use the brains to be in touch with the universe.

In a simpler way also, I have told about the mind. We all recognize as the mind. Mind as the combination of consciousness and energy. And that is you, yourself. That is from where the ‘I’ consciousness is coming, arising. Means, also I have told if you all remember, amongst millions of thoughts that is in your mind, one thing is the consciousness of your own existence. You have that feeling that ‘I exist’. Just now you don’t know what it is. So, you would have identified yourself with the physical body as yourself. But this consciousness is not coming simply from the physical body. It’s independent of the physical body. Just now, it appears to be inside. But in deeper meditation state, one can experience it as all-pervaded. The body is inside. Matter is inside the consciousness. That is another thing. We can discuss later, if necessary. So, this is the basic concept or the existence, truth of the consciousness. Any consciousness is you. You are the combination of consciousness and energy.

So, now we have to understand what consciousness means. One basic clue is, wherever you apply yourself or your consciousness, you become aware of that existence. So, with the help of brain, you are able to apply your consciousness to this world and you become aware of the existence of this world. In the same way, like when I’m talking also, if you are able to apply your consciousness to me, focus your concentration to me, what generally we recognize as ‘apply your mind’, ‘be mindful’, these type of things; it is the consciousness which you have to apply, then you can become aware of what I am trying to convey through a language. Otherwise, your consciousness can run away somewhere else. That means your mind. So, you won’t be aware exactly of what I am trying to tell. Simply some murmuring sound would reach your ears.

So, these are some of the points of consciousness. But I’m certain that this is independent of the matter. Matter is inside the consciousness. When the consciousness spins and expands, it becomes creative, then the matter gets created. Just like in your mind, so much of creation is there in the form of thoughts, visions – those visions get converted as characters, personalities, stories, all these things. But all the raw material is consciousness, and the creativity is also from the consciousness only. Consciousness imagines and the creation happens. So, all exist within the consciousness. So, based on this, this universe also exists within a higher consciousness. When that consciousness… that is the truth in other words, what Einstein mentioned as the truth expanding. Here, truth, when it expands, becomes creative, then universe also expands. Matter also expands.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. Babaji has answered a lot there and I think we’ll have some more questions about things that Babaji raised there. Baba, when we think of consciousness, we think of the inner experience we have, the mind with its thoughts, its feelings, our emotions, sensations from the sensory organs, the sight, the sound, the smell, taste. And Babaji said that the consciousness is the feeling that you exist. But are we talking in the same way as these experiences? Is that what consciousness is? Or is consciousness something beyond that?

Shri Babaji: Consciousness itself is beyond that. To be precise, there is no conclusive definitive definition that can be told, because it’s the way you recognize. For sake of understanding, for sake of education to teach the students, the nearest imagination that we can use is the consciousness and energy combination. For the Self, usually in philosophical terms, the term used is the Self, Self-Realization, you realize yourself, how you exist, in what way, all these things. So that is how the consciousness is. Simply the thoughts themselves are not consciousness. Thoughts and visions are in the consciousness. Consciousness itself is the raw material. Technology is the creativity to create them.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. Babaji, it seems that there are different individual consciousnesses within this consciousness. As Babaji has explained, that consciousness is all pervaded. But it seems that there are different consciousnesses interacting with each other. Is this right? Can we say that there are different consciousnesses interacting with each other in this world?

Shri Babaji: Though it is the one consciousness, but the same consciousness, if it has got trapped with the brain’s reflections, then an individuality appears there. With that imagination of that individuality, that consciousness starts operating as if it is a small individual. It forgets its universal existence. So, it thinks it is an individual. Something like the space within an earthen pot. We keep several earthen pots, eight to ten earthen pots. All the space is same. From a higher consciousness, when we see all the earthen pots, pitchers, we realize that all the space is same. But if that space due to some reason – like here in humans due to getting trapped with the brain’s reflections – if that space starts thinking itself as an individual, it will operate based on that individuality which is recognized as an ego.

So, the same consciousness can try to be harming another consciousness. One earthen pitcher trying to harm the other earthen pitcher. So, that is the fun unfortunately in this entire world or universe that is happening. See, particularly, let us take human beings. Human beings, we call it as selfishness, have become so selfish and narrow-mindedness. This narrow-mindedness, why we call, you have identified yourself in one physical body, very narrow. Though you are simply all-pervaded, but are unable to remember that, recollect about that one, just now you have forgotten. That’s what we try to remind and teach everyone. You are much more, much beyond the birth and death of the body. You are that consciousness, one with all-pervaded consciousness. That is what the Self is. That is where is the ‘I’.

To try to experience that only, the basic idea of meditation is, first you get rid of all the imagined thoughts and visions. As long as they are there, it will drag you to itself. That means your consciousness gets preoccupied and sucked into these imaginations. And whatever it has imagined, this consciousness starts dancing according to the tunes of the imagined items. It means, you see, I will repeat again. You imagine something and then you get carried away with your own imagination, forgetting that it is there simply because of your imagination. Thus, you are involved in this universe with all emotions of happiness, unhappiness, good and bad, peace and anger, all these things, the six enemies of human mind like jealousy and anger and greed, all these things, is all depicting. And you as the consciousness is a victim of this, whereas you only imagined, but now you have forgotten. You are stuck with this body. You consider this body as yourself.

So, the space inside the earthen pitcher is considering itself as the earthen pot, whereas it is all-pervaded. So, this is what you have to practically experience of your all-pervadedness by keen observation. That observation is the meditation. “Observe from where the ‘I’ is coming”, as Ramana Maharishi said, you know? By keeping the eyes closed, concentrate and observe from where the ‘I’; that is where the ‘I’ is coming. Whatever we talk of consciousness, that is also because that is from where the ‘I’ feeling is arising if you keenly observe in meditation, getting rid of all thoughts and visions. So, that is the Self. That is what is recognized as the Self.

Because the ancient sages were also like great scientists. They bothered about reality. Just like science, spirituality also goes for existence value and the real values. Existence value means, what are we? Are we born with this body? Are we going to become extinct when the body dies? Or are we going to exist in some other form? How to know this one? Then they understood, if we have to know, you have to observe. Anything you want to know, first thing is, you have to observe. You want to know the space, you want to know the world, you have to observe. Its happenings, based on that you can get some idea of what it is.

Like, the world is impermanent, you get the idea if you keenly observe. Everything is impermanent. It’s losing its shape, it’s moving in the time zone, time’s periphery. Like in the same way, if you observe introvert, they thought, “So we have to observe this ‘I’ that is coming”, that’s why they went on, “This body cannot be the ‘I’. And this, simply, the application of wisdom of the brain cannot be the I”, they thought. “Neti, neti,” that is the thing. Then finally, when they stopped all thoughts and visions, their consciousness stopped there. Mind stopped there. That means it got absorbed into the Self. That’s where it stopped, and this is how they experienced and concluded, “This Self is eternal and this is totally independent of the matter, consciousness”. So that is how they all understood this one. So that’s how we can also understand by this practice of meditation. And ‘consciousness’ is the nearest word that we can explain, give an idea what the Self is, what you really are.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. So, Babaji explained there that when the mind is totally still, you become aware of your real Self. That is the pure consciousness that we talk of.

Shri Babaji: Exactly. Because that ‘I’ consciousness will not disappear. You cannot make it go away or disappear. You can make all thoughts and visions disappear when you become quiet. You have to learn the technique of becoming quiet. Just now, you won’t be able to know how to become quiet because thoughts and visions, millions and millions are there. For that only the technique is, just watch the thoughts. You are thinking about the thought. That’s why it is increasing. The thoughts are all increasing, tremendously increasing. If you stop and just watch, then it will all decrease and will vanish. During this period is the patience. That’s what is the tapas, patience, meditation, that you need to practice. That’s what the Guru would like to teach you all, train you all into this. This is what is the vital thing you have to remember. Not bother about hundreds of other things, then your mind gets diverted. You want to know about this, you want to know about that, you want to know about other subjects, “What is astrology? What is this? What is God?” No need. First you just become quiet in meditation. Then you will know the beautiful truth.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. So, Babaji has described the secret of the method to just watch. But this instruction to actually just watch is actually to be aware of your true nature, to be the pure consciousness itself. To just watch, is that what that means?

Shri Babaji: Yeah, just watch means, in other words, just be quiet. Then you will be able to watch that ‘I’, that consciousness of existence. Before that, all thoughts and visions must cease to exist. They have to dissolve in the mind. That’s important. Until then, it will draw your attention to itself, every thought. Because we have considered this world as the most important, more than anything else for us just now. This is necessary; we are living, we have to live in the world. To take care of the world and look into the world also is important. But if we compare the Self and the world, the Self should be more important. Afterwards, the world. Like that, the observing in meditation is what I’m trying to tell. Observe. So, thoughts can be important in this world. But you can think about that afterwards. But during meditation, to observe yourself, you have to become quiet.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. Babaji, when the mind is totally silent, totally quiet, does that mean one does not experience anything in that state?

Shri Babaji: Nothing except the Self’s existence. In that state, there is no need to experience anything. Supreme Peace. When you don’t need anything, you are at peace. You experience that Supreme Peace. That’s inexplicable, beyond anybody’s guess. That’s why the words like Brahmanandam Parama Sukhadam, all these have been used. They are the peace beyond imaginations. The peace that is Supreme, means, no other highly qualified peace is there other than this. That Supreme Peace you will enjoy. You will have that. That is the symptom.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Baba. For many, Babaji, the idea of non-existence, of not experiencing anything is quite terrifying. But of course, Babaji has said that in that total silence, in that peace, it is a Supreme Peace and total contentment. Could Babaji explain a bit more about this? The idea that people have of not experiencing anything is quite a frightening prospect.

Shri Babaji: You see, the reason is, everybody is simply used to the matter – recognizing the matter, analyzing the matter, making a judgment of the matter, living with the matter as a matter, as a matter, matter. More than that, we have never bothered to experience anything else. Whereas the space is there in front of us. Means, we simply take it granted – type. We have not tried to observe very keenly about the space, or experience what the space is. What is the real meaning or experience of peace, these things we have never tried to know. We have always imagined that a peace for enjoyment is coming from the matter. Means whenever we eat the matter, we enjoy the matter in any way, we thought, “Because of this matter, we are happy.” Whereas we are actually happy because we are happy. Means we are quiet, that’s why we are happy.

This point seldom gets noticed by anybody. Your attention gets attracted to the matter that you are enjoying. You think that this is what is giving you enjoyment. At that moment, the mind stops there. That matter has a small moment of ability to make you stop in itself, but it won’t be permanent. It will be depending on different moments, a small moment, one minute, five minutes, like that only. Because the capacity of the matter is not much more than that. So, it cannot give you a continuous consistent peace always. It will end. I always keep talking about the ice cream, chocolates; these are the things commonly… Means, any eatable, anything that is dearer to you, you enjoy. You think that you are enjoying, but you have to notice at the same time, the same thing might be giving you anxiousness also, “What after this finishes?” You enjoy a cup of ice cream. You eat one or two spoons and then you start thinking, “Oh God, this should not finish, it should always be there. How nice this is.” But no, it won’t stay there if you think, it will have to finish. It will be over, and that’s done. For a short while, you feel that you are satisfied, but then the craving starts again.

So, these points are seldom noticed. And we go again after the matter in this world, thinking that is the one which is giving happiness. Whereas, if we remain quiet, slowly if we realize. The body needs for its sustenance, it needs so many other things of the world, from food, oxygen, water, to so much and what not, everything – that is a different story. But what I am trying to tell is for the Self, for the mind to remain quiet. It doesn’t really need anything. It has to practice to remain quiet. As a Yogi, we give food to the body because that is needed to sustain this body. Without this body, I cannot communicate and educate you all, create the awareness. It’s not possible. Once this body drops, then it’s gone. You won’t be able to recognize Babaji, or able to hear. For that reason, we give food, we give water, we take care of the oxygen intake. All these things are needed for the body. But all these things don’t disturb our mental peace. Without any of the things of the matter, the consciousness is always at peace. Because it has become aware and understood itself, for me this is not needed. For the body only, it is needed.

Same Questioner: Thank you Babaji. Baba, is the goal of living beings or living organisms to develop a brain intelligent enough to think in this way, that we need to become peaceful, we need to go back to the Self? Simply, is that what the evolution of life needs to lead to?

Shri Babaji: You see, anything we try to discover or invent, whether computer, artificial intelligence or brain also, you want to create, then somebody needs to handle that. You have to set a program. Then based on that program only, the computer or artificial intelligence will behave. Without that it won’t be able to behave. So, once you have programmed it, it will behave only to that thing. It cannot think like a human consciousness. Whatever already is programmed, it will tell. The spellings we see in the computer, whatever, if it’s an American English spelling that has been set, if you click the button that the correction of spellings has to happen, very often it could be very confusing if we are trying to do it in Indian English. In Indian languages we are trying to convey something and the spelling is coming something else. Again, you have to delete and write it down. Because that is all it is programmed to. More than that, it cannot think, “Oh Babaji is writing. I will have to convey. This is what Babaji wants to convey and I can do” – it cannot do. Though it is amazing, computer system is wonderful, but it has its own limitations, in the same way artificial intelligence also. Even if we do the brain – that’s why I’m telling, brain can be a very good servant, but a bad master. Means, without you operating the brain itself, it cannot get operated.

Say, one day they will make a brain, but they will have to set a program, programming that. Robots are coming up, so many things we get to hear in science. But they need to have a controlling button and the activation button, programming button, all these things are necessary. The programming, based on that only the robot will behave or operate upon. They can keep improving that, improving, almost like a human being it can come and serve you a cup of coffee. But if it’s programmed, if you’re sitting there, that is all. So, whatever is programmed. Finally, it is the consciousness which has to handle. That is the Master.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. Baba, we only know what’s in our own consciousness; it’s impossible to know what’s in anyone else’s mind. And also, it’s impossible to really prove that anything exists outside of our own consciousness.

Shri Babaji: Yes.

Same Questioner: Is that right, does anything exist outside of our consciousness, Babaji?

Shri Babaji: Cannot. That is the final frontier. Like, you telling, “Is there any place outside the space? Show me. I will go away there”, and you keep this space for yourself. So, to Adi Shankara, Lord Shiva said, who came with a country made alcohol as an untouchable person when he said, “Give me way”. “Okay, show me beyond Brahmanda,” or the space; He called it as Brahmanda. “If there is any place beyond the Brahmanda, then I will go there.” Then Adi Shankara immediately understood, “This person who has this knowledge is equivalent to my Guru, he cannot be ordinary.” The real science he had to understand. There is no such thing called ‘beyond space’. You go out of space.

Somebody might tell, “Now you need to find another planet. It’s better”. One person tells, “Earth, it’s going to be difficult.” You can find a Mars, you can find a Jupiter, you can find another system, solar system, anything. But finally, all these will be limited. There also, the life has to come to an end. You cannot run away beyond space. You go on and on and on and on. Not possible. That’s what it is.

As long as humans don’t learn to live in peace, in harmony, love and care, they will have trouble. No matter if God permits them to exist in all the planets of the solar system, still they will have tension, they will have jealousy, they will have fights, conflicts, threatening each other. These will all go on. Otherwise, this earth was plenty for the things that’s happening, the rotation, nature, you see? People are born and they become old and they die. The next generation are born. They become old, die, the next generation are born. Our great-grandfather was born and died. Next generation born and died. Grandfather came and went away. Father came and went away. We also came and we are about to go. So, this is the nature. The nature has made it, everything, so that the next generation can come. If we are going to be alive all the time, how will the next generations come? Not possible.

So, this is the truth we have to understand, finally. We have to find the satisfaction inside within us, the contentment, the awareness of the Self. That only can give us a permanent existence entity. Eternal entity. That is the real Self-Realization. The rest is all like this. It goes on and on. Some billion years, or ten billion years, many, long, long ago, Mars might have had some life species, you don’t know. That would have gone now, gone out of sight now. You are trying to get excited and it’s not going to have it tomorrow. If some two persons keep arguing that “I will make a colony in that planet, in that moon, in this thing.”

Fifty years ago, also we heard. Everybody got excited when footprints on the moon were kept. And so many stories came, jokes came, such and such a film actor had just returned now from moon, like these type of things came, but it all stopped. Things were not as easy as we had thought actually. After that, they had to abandon the program of going to moon. Means, life sustaining things, so many things are there, traveling, these are all not easy. Means, we’re just as a micro speck, jumping here and there, getting excited. In the space, you will get to see in that, somewhere here our solar system, our Milky Way is here as a small dot. That is all. The vastness of space and the massive matter has been created. So, all these things are amazing.

So, it’s not easy as we imagine and think. Self-Realization is the real recommended goal for a Supreme Peace, to experience that eternally you exist. And as we started talking this discussion, experiences and no experiences, non-existence, all these things. Because people are used to dualities, if one is not there, it must be another, that’s what they think. It need not be either of the two. Buddha himself said, when somebody asked, “Does God exist?” He kept quiet. Then the student asked, “Does it mean that God does not exist?” Then Buddha said, “When did I say so? I did not utter anything. I am quiet. You are imagining yourself”. So, people argue about existence and non-existence, atman, anatman. That thing is like that; it is there and it is not there. The room is void with space, or room is filled with space. It is up to you. One organization might try to insist it is anatman, another organization might insist it is atman. Both are equal for us. We are beyond that. Beyond form and formless. Form and formlessness people also keep arguing. “It is form. It is formless. It is both. It is not both. It is above all.” So that existence itself is like that. We have to simply use a nearest imagination if at all we want to explain either as an atman or anatman. Either as a void place or an absolute place, either as a zero or absolute, whatever you want to recognize. It is all the same. And both have actually no meaning finally. You have to drop all ideas and just become quiet.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. So, we have to stop making assumptions about anything. Only then can we be aware of who we are.

Shri Babaji: That’s why Swamiji simply said, “Simply sit down and meditate.” He didn’t give any name what that philosophy is; “This is the truth, this is the truth,” He did not say what it is, what it is not. Whatever you imagine, it will appear to you in that way. You experience finally when you become totally quiet. Don’t have to be scared. That is Supreme Peace. These points positively you think for such people who get scared about this non-existence or no experience. In duality, you experience that your existence is eternal. You are not going to disappear. When you merge with the Self, you may not experience anything because there is no relative existence there. Only the theory of the relativity; as long as there is a relative existence, only you experience about the other also. If it is the only one single Self, there is nothing to experience there.

If the other person is there with you, then you can take credit for yourself and you can boast. If there is nobody, what is the claim that I have to make that I am a Self-Realized person? If there is a second person, then I have to boast, “Oh, I am a Self-Realized person. Do you know this?” Do I need the other person’s certificate? If at all I am really Self-Realized, I become quiet. That is all.

So, that is what is the experience, real experience. You don’t need somebody to recognize you. You don’t need somebody else. Only in duality this is recognized. When it becomes simply one there is neither ocean nor a droplet. Nothing is called. It is there and it is not there also. If it is there, we will name it. If it is there and if it is not there, that type of thing, what do you name? Is it anatman or atman? Both are same. Whatever you want to call, you call for sake of understanding, but finally when you become quiet, you become quiet. Nothing is scary. If there is something, only the problem arises. If you don’t have a problem, there is no problem at all.

For Matsyendranath, as long as he had the diamonds that his wife had given, he was scared about dacoits. Every evening when they camped, he was asking his disciple Gorakhnath, “Are there any fear of robberers and thieves and dacoits here?” He was wondering, “Why should we be afraid of any dacoits?” Next day evening he checked the Guru’s luggage. A lot of diamonds, precious stones were there, “Oh God, this is the dacoits and robberers.” He threw all of them, and then put some small stones into the luggage. Next day evening when the Master asked, “Master, yesterday evening itself I finished all robberers and thieves, and dacoits. There is no fear for you. You can peacefully sleep now.”

So, as long as there is something, you have a problem. As long as this body is there, there is a problem of this body dying or undergoing any problem, unhappiness, illness, suffering. That is scary for everyone. If the body had never come into existence… Before we were born in 1954, we don’t remember anything. We don’t know. There is no suffering for that period. If at all we were there or not, we don’t remember at all! It means everybody in their previous life, there is no suffering of previous life actually. The suffering is here because we have this imagination of the body and that’s why the suffering also is there. Otherwise, there was no suffering. We get to hear as history, during Second World War so much of suffering was there. It is sad. But we don’t remember whether we were there, we were not there. We don’t know. We did not suffer. So, what I’m trying to tell: if it is there, there is a problem. If it is not there, there is no problem at all. So, no need to worry. That’s the most beautiful existence, eternity.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. Baba, there’s actually been a question sent in related to this from Kalpana who asks: What actually happens to the consciousness at the time of death and birth?

Shri Babaji: If the consciousness is pure; it has got rid of all its thoughts, it merges with the Ultimate Truth and remains there, eternally. Otherwise, based on its thoughts, it will be reborn. Whatever it has desired, some thoughts and visions, it will be reborn. It will get to see another world, another body and another this and that.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Baba. Babaji, a question related to science. Within the scientific community, they say that no science achieves maturity without a system of measurement. And Babaji, You’ve said that you can’t measure this consciousness, you can’t measure this space. So science will really need to change from this position if they want to understand consciousness?

Shri Babaji: Yeah, you see… or they have to accept they can never understand what the space is, because they cannot measure. They have to accept. If you want to measure the space, you have to become the space itself. You all agree, nothing else can measure the space. If anybody tells, “I have measured the space, it is 50,000 light years distance”, it is wrong, you know? That’s a false statement, it cannot be. It’s beyond, it goes on and on. So, that’s what it is, measuring.

So, we go into ‘existence value’, a science means. It exists. This is what we can experience. The space exists – whether as something or nothing, it exists, it is there. Like, the Self also is there. It might appear as if it is there, it might appear as if it is not there, but it exists. Some wisdom also has to be applied. Definitely, we have highest regard for science also, spirituality also. Simply as spiritual and as scientists, we need to grow and become more mature. That’s my opinion.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. There’s a few more questions that have been sent in if I can ask and then afterwards maybe we can open to all participants. From Henry is a question: I understand and accept that Parabrahman did not create the world. But is there a teaching that by a tiny part of his power of imagination, the world appeared as His dream?

Shri Babaji: That’s what the story I heard from my Master and we also experienced in observation during our deeper meditation, that watching certain things of the mind it creates within itself. And some scriptures talking, like when the Divine wanted –they have used these terminologies – “Divine, Parabrahman wanted to create and there was nothing else that existed to use it as raw material, so the Divine created in itself.” That’s what the Katopanishad talks, like this. So, this type of teachings are there. So, for that the concept also is told that the Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara concepts are the higher consciousness, not the Parabrahman as it is, not the space as it is. From the space an enormous amount of consciousness arose and that created, but that did not get involved with the creation. That is why that consciousness is also considered as a Divine, because it did not become corrupted.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. There’s another question related to this from Mike T.V. He says, is it important to think of consciousness in Indian yogic terms such as Shiva or Brahman? Or can we think of it in purely scientific terms such as nature, energy, beingness?

Shri Babaji: Any terminology is alright. That thing will not mind. You see, when we come across a truth, if we want to present the truth, usually we use such terminologies based on the language, culture that is prevailing in that area. Like, even in spirituality also, different masters would have used different terminologies. What the terminologies that Jesus used may not be the same terminologies as the ancient Rigvedic era sages used. And some other master might have used some other terminologies. Buddha used slightly different terminologies, but the truth is all same. Like, Einstein just wanted to call it as truth. Like that it is no harm using any terminology, as long as when you use the terminology, the criteria that should strike, register in your mind should be the same.

A root cause, immediate cause, nearest cause; all this should give the meaning. Ultimate Truth, Parabrahman. They are certain terminologies. They used Parabrahman also – ‘beyond all imaginations’, a certain thing which about which you cannot imagine at all. Tatva, also ‘That’, that means. So, like this, no harm if you want to use any other terminology. Simply based on the culture. When you worship, means you show the highest respect. In every culture, showing respect is there, right? You all agree. In science or technology or anywhere, ‘respect the tools of the trade’; this sentence is also told. It is the cultural background that when we came across the truth, they said ‘It is Divine in nature’. Before that, no word, such word was used. They thought because of this, it is Divine in nature, because it can give us peace and wash away all our unnecessary sinful imaginations once for all. That is why it is Divine in nature, like that they used. So, for that, you can use any other terminology also you want, it’s no harm.

Same Questioner: Thank you Babaji. Another question here from Kalpana. I have heard Babaji say that there is dilution of consciousness, birth after birth. If we have not been meditating, we go further away from the truth. What does Babaji mean by this?

Shri Babaji: Every life, if you are unable to make your mind non-violent, as quiet as possible, that is what is getting corrupted with unnecessary imaginations and thoughts and visions 24 hours, then life after death, it gets scattered and diluted. That’s why I use the word. Means, it loses its potency. When it loses its potency, the return journey becomes equally difficult to go back to the Ultimate Truth. That’s why you meditate so that you gather yourself. Quietening means, becoming quiet means, you become non-violent, you are quiet. Otherwise, you see, the whole 24 hours if you are habitual to a particular thing, your mind keeps thinking that, you will be talking that thing only, and it will induce you to behave into such things. Suddenly you will remember, “Oh God, this is so bad that I did all this – unnecessary waste of time. I should have been meditating instead of this, how important”. But when you become habitual, that’s what will happen.

Same Questioner: Thank you Babaji. Another question from Rakesh: Is science as it exists now also a product of imagination, creativity?

Shri Babaji: You see, terminologies used is all imagination for sake of understanding and communication. You come across… [gestures an outline of a shape] When you come across, when you discover a certain existence, it will be dumb founding, awesome. Then you give it a name, ‘exoplanet’. And you explain, “This name is given because of this”. Like that, that is what imagination means. Every terminology based on that culture, that term, that scientific knowledge, terminology. You see, medical experts have their own terminologies. If we get to see a mentally challenged person, we might like to use one sentence, ‘mentally retarded’, something. But when medical experts try to understand, they started using different terminologies, different stages, like this, they used. Finally, they are coming to ‘brain challenged’. Until then, they were using ‘mentally challenged,’ so not ‘mentally retarded.’ ‘Retarded’ is different, ‘mentally challenged’ is different, like that. So, like that terminologies are used in medicine in their own way. So, like that spirituality also has used its own terminologies.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. There is another question actually on this topic, from Bhaskar: A person who is in this condition, mentally challenged, people think that person is unconscious. What is happening to the consciousness in this case?

Shri Babaji: You see, the brain is challenged. There is some problem in the brain. That is why that consciousness is unable to communicate properly with this world. Its behaviour, its understanding, everything changes. Sometimes somebody else may need to help that physical body to look after that one, because that consciousness is unable to behave. So, it may have to wait until that body goes. But if that body, somebody helps that physical body to remain in such non-violent circumstances so that peace is absorbed by the consciousness. The consciousness can absorb through its sensory organs, either through eyes or ears, something might be stronger when the brain is challenged in some way. We may not understand, but it will absorb. We try to keep it in a proper atmosphere that it is able to have that peace. So, remembering God, prayers, soothing music, all these things can be very good therapy and helpful to that person in its onward journey, when this body goes. Then the consciousness will be able to attain a better physical body, then it can be able to understand the truth in a much better way, do meditations, do sadhanas, these things are possible. So, this is what is my observation and my opinion. That’s how you can help such a person.

Same Questioner: Babaji, when we are in a state of complete unconsciousness, so we’ve been, for instance, anaesthetised, or we’re in a completely deep sleep with no brain activity, is that really our pure consciousness? What’s the difference there between that state?

Shri Babaji: Not a pure consciousness. It is simply unconscious of the surroundings and this world when the brain goes to total sleep, like a deep sleep, not even the dream. Because the consciousness itself has not become purified. It is holding, its habits of thoughts and visions are there. The moment the brain becomes active, it gets applied and the cinema starts. You have to meditate, keeping the brain alert. Brain needs to be healthy and alert. Then if you go on just watching, that’s how you practice becoming quiet mentally, quiet mentally, then only it gets purified.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Babaji. Babaji, is it okay if we open up to all participants now? Do we have some time?

Shri Babaji: Yeah, we have about 10 to 15 minutes, we’ll take a few questions. Sorry, today was a longer discussion. We couldn’t give much time to you all, but however I think we have taken some questions sent by you all. Whatever time is there, you can ask, please. Be clear in your questions what you want to ask.

Question: Namaskaram, Babaji. Can we call the consciousness as the supreme power within us, and mind, which carries our karma and operates our brain or functions that builds our karma, can that quietness of mind take us to understand the consciousness?

Shri Babaji: Quietness will take you to merge with the actual consciousness. Helps the mind to give up all its imaginations and merge with that consciousness, a higher consciousness. The more that you are able to meditate, it can take you towards the Divinity that is your Ultimate Truth. That’s why quietening of the mind is very important. Otherwise, it will be carrying all the karmas of imaginations, all these things happen. So, when you do meditation and eventually, one day when you are able to do more meditation, more than eight to ten hours and like a tapas, then your mind will totally merge with the Supreme Consciousness.

Same Questioner: That’s the universal God we call. That is what we say, we have God in all of us.

Shri Babaji: Yes, yes, exactly. That’s the same thing.

Same Questioner: Thank you.

Question: Pranams Babaji, my question is related to the idea of omnipresence and omnipotence that is so much talked about as one of the qualities of God. I mean, I come from a Christian tradition. And since the very beginning, I had all these doubts and didn’t relate very well with the answers that were given to me. So, when you talked about the space, the idea that we are linked to the body so you cannot imagine what it is, the space, I had a glimpse that maybe that’s what happens. You are continuously in this space, You have become this space. So, in this sense, You can actually be anywhere or feel anything that other consciousnesses can feel?

How does the idea of praying to the Divine works then? Because then our consciousness gets connected to the consciousness of the Divine which is in the space. So, if I pray to You, You actually can actually link to my conscience and then kind of know that I’m praying to You, or something like that? Or the whole concept of omnipresence and omnipotence is just another concept that was built to explain, to relate to the idea that the Divine is in the space?

Shri Babaji: Both can be happening. One thing is, when a person is Self-Realized, He has become one with the Divinity that is all pervaded space, this is one thing. There is no individuality left. So, sitting here, my consciousness is one with the Divine. It will not be looking into every individual consciousness called mind, no need. However, when one individual like you, if you pray, that prayer reaches and with an automatic Divine activity the grace will flow. For that, I don’t have to resolve anything, I don’t have to think. We simply teach faith and devotion. Because when you have faith in the name of a certain person as your Guru, as a God, whatever it is, then you pray to that personality. Then the prayer actually reaches the Divine, then the grace automatically flows and comes to you, depending on your faith. That’s why always in scriptures also, Jesus also taught, it is your faith which enabled you to do this, get this. So, that’s what you have to cultivate. Faith and devotion. Then it will happen.

Same Questioner: Thank You, Babaji.

Question: Namaste, Babaji. My question is, is the consciousness and Atma both the same? If it is same, why Babaji won’t use the term ‘Paramatma’, why Babaji would use most of the times only ‘consciousness’?

Shri Babaji: It is the same. Just so that modern day generations easily can understand ‘the consciousness’, when I explain. Otherwise, generally, learned gurus simply give a lecture using Atman, Paramatman, Brahman, this, that. But hardly anybody understands what is this Atman, where it is. Means, when I tell you, “This is it”, you should be able to know, “Oh, for this only Babaji is telling this”. Like when I tell you, “Consciousness of existence, that is your mind”, you can understand where your mind is. Thoughts and visions based on that, you call it mind. And that mind is the combination of consciousness and energy, I tell. Then I tell, in your mind, amongst millions of thoughts, there is consciousness of existence. That you can understand; that you exist. You have that feeling always. All these are same: in ancient times, they have used ‘Atman’ and all such terminologies. So, instead of simply going on, talking the scriptural terms, I try to use the nearest possible clue in front of you, so that you can understand modern-day. Even when I have written commentaries on two, three books also, Guru Geeta, Viveka, Choodamani and Ashtavakra Samhita also, I have used these modern terminologies of ‘consciousness’ and ‘mind’ only so that people can understand easily. That is the reason. It is the same; Atman.

Same Questioner: Babaji, in that sense, actually space, Atman, Brahman, consciousness, all these four are same?

Shri Babaji: Same, same. That’s what you experience in Samadhi.

Same Questioner: Thank you.

Question: Something that’s confused me for quite a long time is when a Self-Realized yogi dies, the body dies, in my mind I conceptualize that this person is going to be all alone. Everything in the universe disappears and it’s just this person with this consciousness. And so then the question comes up for me, well, how can they be happy with something like that? [Babaji laughs heartily]

So, then I’m going to add a little bit here. When the Yogi is still living, He’s connected with the brain so that He has thoughts. So, let’s say then this Yogi dies, are there no longer any thoughts? And how does it relate to consciousness and happiness, and not feeling alone?

Shri Babaji: Now, allow me to tell you what it is. When a person is Self-Realized, there are no thoughts in the mind. The mind is no more mind. It is a Pure Consciousness that has become one with the Ultimate Truth. A little bit of consciousness is in touch with the brain so that this body is alive. That is I have explained as a satvik ego, a good, higher quality ego; an attachment to my Master’s name and wanting to share this beautiful knowledge-awareness about the Self. So, that is all the ego. I don’t have millions of thoughts of a million dollars and dump, pump, all these things of the world. Nothing is in the mind. For me, the world does not exist at all. It is a vague dream state type; simply I am only a witness. I don’t have thoughts that “I need to own this one. I need to give up this one. I need to have…” No such thing is there. It is simply at peace. Without any thoughts it is peace there, and the awareness of the Self is always there.

Now, when the body dies, the consciousness which is pure, there are no thoughts, and it will merge with the Ultimate Truth where there are no thoughts at all, no creativity, nothing is necessary. To be happy, there is no need for thoughts to be there. Thoughts are actually torturesome things, you ask anybody. So, Yogi will not have any more thoughts at all. He is just one with the Divine.

Same Questioner: And in this oneness, one does not feel like they’re all alone? They feel like they’re part of everything?

Shri Babaji: See, there is no loneliness there. There is no second existence at all. There is no relativity. If there is relativity, because you think that you are a male member, if you start thinking about a female member, you will start feeling loneliness. The example I am just giving for education, this is what came to mind. That is all. Otherwise, if only you alone existed in the entire world and you had not seen anybody else, no thought would have come as a loneliness for you. Once you start missing something, then the loneliness occurs. This is what is the criteria of depression. Depression is when you are missing something. When you don’t miss anything, there is no depression at all. Supreme Peace.

Same Questioner: Okay, all right. Well, thank you.

End of Session