0:00 Intro
0:18 What is death? Who is it that dies?
2:47 Why do people want to avoid thinking about death and don’t want to find out the truth?
5:48 Why doesn’t everyone ponder about what is going to happen after death?
9:04 What effect did the thought of death have in Yogis such as Buddha, Nachiketa, Adi Shankara etc?
19:51 What is vairagya and its connection with the thought of death?
24:51 How should we enquire about death to understand the impermanence of the world?
28:10 What connection is there between the thought of death and meditation?
36:18 Why is it that for Yogis, the strong thought of death came at an early age?
40:33 Why is there a fear of death?
43:13 How can we overcome that fear of death and teach the next generation?
45:47 How important is it for society worldwide to get exposed to spirituality?
54:50 When close to death, does a dying person see people that have departed in their lives?
55:24 Are there many different layers of the body or koshas?
57:48 Does the body of a person who has died need to be put in a particular posture?
59:21 Is the idea of heaven a myth?
1:01:01 Is it because we are in the age of the Kali Yuga that we there are so many distractions and less opportunity too know the Truth?
1:03:06 How to develop vairagya in relationships?
1:04:39 The name of Lord Murugan
1:06:30 Meditation is better when on Babaji’s online session. How to achieve the same level of focus when meditating alone?
1:07:17 Does meditation purify the body as well as the mind?
1:08:59 Is it possible to meditate when in the lying posture?
1:10:05 Could Babaji clarify about why we don’t see relatives when close to death?
1:12 :58 When we sleep are we unconscious?
1:13 :41 How do dreams happen?
1:15:27 Before we die how can we ensure that we are the best moral person?

Discourse: In Quest of Truth – online Q&A no.189
The Thought of Death, The Trigger for Vairagya   
Recorded: 15 June 2024

Start of Questions and Answers
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Question:   Thank You for giving us another opportunity to ask Babaji questions.  So, this week, the theme is “The thought of death, the trigger for vairagya.”  So, to start with, I would like to ask, what is death?  What is the truth about death and who is the one that is going to die?

Babaji Maharaj:   Actually, death happens to the physical body.  The mind, which is the consciousness and energy combination, is nothing but you.  It means you, me, what we call it as the Self, and that is the life current also.  And nothing will happen to that.  What happens when death happens?  The brain dies.  At that time, the mind which is consciousness and energy, which is also the ‘I’ becomes unconscious for a while.  Unconscious totally of itself, of surroundings, of the body, of anything else until it resumes its next incarnation. Without much delay, in my opinion, it spins then and there itself and gets to see its own world – everything, parents and its body being born. All these things do happen depending on the attitude, the tendencies that the mind would have acquired since time immemorial, previous lives also, in the just previous life from which that body, physical body falls dead, from when it was alive also.  Whatever imprints it was taking, depending on that, it assumes its next incarnation.  So, this is what actually happens.  Death happens only to the physical body, which is matter.  I would like to directly, simply call it as matter in the world.  Not the consciousness.  Consciousness is the mind which is infinite, invisible to naked eyes.  Like mind is invisible to naked eyes.  So that is what is the Self; it will go to its next birth. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  So, why do people want to avoid thinking about this death?  And why is it that only very few go deeply into this thought to know about the truth of this?

Babaji Maharaj:   Ah, yeah, I understand.  This is a science means, what happens in the ‘existence value.’  Like, I also used to think as a child, “Am I born with this physical body, and am I going to become extinct, totally finished, no existence at all when the body dies, or am I going to exist in some other form?”  Well, this did not create any fear, but a little obsession definitely happened, wanting to know the truth, because this is such a fundamental truth, involving all the creatures, all humanity.  When the birth of the body has happened, death to the physical body is inevitable.  So, to know this truth, one need not be afraid, there need not be any fear or panic.  It is a truth!  

Instead of that, if everybody tries to know what is the truth, what will happen? That was how the ancient sages also wondered about one’s own Self.  See, secure existence of ourselves is important too.  So, for that, if we try to know, there would not be any disturbance, we are not going to destroy the mind, we are not going to lose capabilities to live in the world.  Just, we will know the truth.  Like you come to know about a certain truth of science.  So, what is earth, what is moon, what is sun, something like that, astronomically you come to know.  In the same way, when you practice spiritual sadhana, you come to know about this truth of death happening to which, who is going to die, what happens to us, who are we in all this drama?  Like this, knowledge can be obtained and we can live a normal life in this world.  Just be ready – when it happens, it happens!  There will not be any fear, any panic or any worry, any sadness or sorrow.  It’s just like when your shirt becomes old, you take out and put on a new shirt.  If at all a birth happens, that – then other things we can start thinking. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  So, why doesn’t this thought come to everyone?  Why doesn’t everyone  ponder about what happens after this? Why doesn’t this happen to everyone? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Perhaps they are too preoccupied with their own mental imaginations, and they are preoccupied with this universe that is in front of us, in which this body is also there, so much preoccupation.  So, a time never comes that such a thing occurs to many people.  In fact, the interesting fact is that in the story of Mahabharata, when the Pandavas were in the forest, vanavaasa, one time, one by one his (Yudhishthira) brothers, they all go to a nearby pond to get some water.  But there, the story says, Yama was there in disguise of an angel.  So, He wanted them to answer His questions, but they did not care for Him, so they all fell dead.  So, they all fall dead in fact.  So, finally, the eldest brother Yudhisthira comes.  When the same angel asks him, “Before taking water, you have to answer my questions.”  Then Yudhisthira says, “Yes.”  So, among so many questions, one of the questions answered by Yudhisthira, “The greatest wonder for me is that in this world everybody is going to die, yet nobody bothers to think about it, and start thinking as if they are going to live forever in this world.  This is inevitable.”  So, like this, it doesn’t come.  When it comes, it can take us to the highest truth.  Like this thing occurred to Prince Siddhartha, “Why we should become old, why we should die, what the secret is?” and He became restless until He did not discover what the truth is, and He came to be known as Buddha Bhagavan, Buddha, the great Buddha.  He obtained this knowledge.  So, all tapaswins, yogis like our own Swamiji, they all discovered this amazing truth.  What happens, if the mind carries any imprints or tendencies, simply it will be reborn, it will assume another physical body.  So, if we can clear this mind once for all, totally pure, then there is no birth; we will exist in the Supreme Consciousness of existence, in Supreme Peace. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, the yogis that are going deep into this thought, like many yogis in India; Buddha, Nachiketa, Adi Shankaracharya, Babaji Himself, Ramana Maharishi – so, what effect did this thought have in them to go so deep in the spirituality and to achieve that truth, only with this thought?

Babaji Maharaj:   For different people, different things happened, like Buddha, I have told.  We will take up briefly about Nachiketa of the Katopanishad.  So, with Him, what happened, His father was performing a big sacrifice and was a great scholar; everyday he used to give a discourse on birth and death, that the Self is atman, we are eternal, indestructible; like this, he used to give.  So, during that fire sacrifice, he was preparing a list of gifts to be given to all guests who were invited for that fire sacrifice.  He had a young son, maybe seven or eight-year-old, Nachiketa.  Playfully, He comes, and He asks, “Who are you going to donate me to?”  Then the father was busy preparing.  Just like that, playfully, he said, “Idiot, don’t disturb me.  I will give you to Death God”, then he went on preparing.  This sat in the mind of Nachiketa as a truth, means the honesty, the sincerity, because the boy was innocent.  He thought, “My father has told me that he will donate me to Death God.  So, now I will belong to Death God.”  

But actually when the fire sacrifice was over, all gifts were given to all guests and everybody went away, then this boy is puzzled.  “My father told that he will donate me to Death God, but he seems to have forgotten.”  He comes and tells His father, “Father, you told me that you will donate me to Death God, but you seem to have forgotten.  This is very insincere, wrong; you must do that one.”  Then His father starts crying, “How can I give you to Death God?  You are my only son.  I love you so much.”  Then the story says, disgusted, Nachiketa jumped into the fire and went to the abode of Lord Yama.  So, after three days – Yama had gone on a tour, the story says – He was waiting at the gates.  See the sincerity; that is important here, honesty.  He thinks, the boy thinks, “Now I belong to Lord Yama, and I cannot go anywhere else.  I must just wait here until my Lord comes and asks me to do what next I am supposed to do.  Until then I must be here only.” So, He waited for three days.  

So, when Lord Yama came, He was very happy at the honesty and sincerity of the boy.  He tells, “Okay, you don’t have to die, and you are here, and you are so honest.  I will send you back to the world.  You go.”  But by then, this thought that death is  inevitable.  “We have to die and we have to come to Lord Yama only.  What happens next?” He was puzzled.  This had sat firmly.  So, now in the arguments of the teachings of Katopanishad, next both argue – Lord Yama offers, “You go back to the earth.  You live there for a long time.  Say, five thousand years you live there and enjoy.  You don’t have to die now.”  But the boy’s firmness, you see? That’s what sat in the mind.  “Okay, you are sending me for five thousand years and the five thousand years will be over.  Time will pass by.  After five thousand years, is there anything for me to avoid coming back to You Lord Yama?”  Then Yama says, “No, you have to come back.  You can stay only for five thousand years.  After that, death is inevitable.”  “So, then, give me that truth.”  

Because before that, He asks the questions.  When Lord Yama tells, “I’ll give you 3 boons.”  First, He (Nachiketa) asks, “Let the world not blame my father that he promised to donate me to Death God.”  The second one, He says, “Some people say, even after death of the body also, we will exist as atman and some say, “Really, we don’t know.” But nobody seems to know exactly.  Nobody has come back to tell after death that “My body died like this and I behaved like this” – sincerely speaking.  Myths are all different.  People insincerely talking nonsense, near death experience and all such things has no meaning at all.  He spoke sincerely – that time.  “But nobody has come back to tell the truth.  So, Yama, Please tell me what the truth is, what happens after death, what is this death?”  Then Yama tells, “You go back to earth and live there.  You don’t have to bother about this death just now.  You are very young.  You have to live for a long time.”  So, in the argument, Yamaraja goes on increasing the time, 5,000 to 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, but the boy is totally firm.  See, that thought has sat in His mind, “Death is inevitable.  We have to die.  Even after 50,000 years of enjoying being an emperor, whatever it is, death will come after that.  And that time will pass by.  It will happen.  And then I have to come back.” 

Then He asks Yama, “Is there anything to avoid coming back?”  Yama says, “No, after 50,000 years, you will come back to me.  So, this is inevitable.  This is the law of nature; every physical body which has appeared will have to disappear, which is born, will have to die.”  “So, then now, here, tell me what the truth of my existence, what the ultimate truth is actually.”  So, like that, you know, this thought, that was how some of the great yogis firmly held onto that one.  So, He did not compromise for any other things.  He did not get attracted for any other gift or boons of Yama Raja.  He was totally obsessed with the death thought, “I need to know the truth, what happens here.”

   So, like that, Swamiji also, He had the habit to hang on to it.  He was blessed by the appearance of the Divinity, Lord Shiva, who came as a Jangama sage.  So, perhaps because of His own destiny, then He was made to sit for tapas.  So, Swamiji went on doing that one without bothering.  He knew – how? He knew death will happen definitely.  So, that one incident, after two-three months, one day, He came out of samadhi, He was feeling very painful.  He was feeling very bad to sit down.  He started crying.  He thought, “Why should I sit in this graveyard like a dead man?  I did not ask anybody to make me to sit like this.  What is the purpose?  I need to go back home and do some business and look after my mother and other siblings.  So, let me go.”  Then, when He came to the gates of the graveyard, that Jangama sage was standing at the gate.  He says, “Now you have to go back and sit for twelve years like this.  That is in your destiny, which has enabled us to manifest.”  He said, “So, until twelve years, I will not allow you to go anywhere else.  After twelve years, let us see.  You can go.  If you still want to go anywhere, it’s your choice.”  Then, determined, Swamiji told this, “Okay, now I will sit for twelve years that You want.  Only if death happens to the body, I cannot guarantee.  I am helpless.  Then, my effort for twelve years will be stopped.  If death doesn’t happen, I will not bother for any power, any difficulty, any obstacles.  I will continue this tapas for twelve years.”  So, determined, He promised, He came back and sat.  Then, it became a question of self-respect.  That’s what Swamiji used to tell.  Means, like Swamiji’s nature was like that, ‘hang on to it,’ determined, ‘do or die’.  He knew death is inevitable.  That’s when He said – He was not afraid –  “I will sit for twelve years, but if death happens, then don’t blame me that I did not complete twelve years.  What can I do?  Until then, I will definitely sit down.”  So, like this, different yogis, all happen in different ways. 

   When I heard Bhaja Govindam, “When the end comes to the body, none of the worldly, power, health, wealth, anything cannot come to your rescue”,  then I wanted to know the secret of death.  I became obsessed.  I could not forget this thought, but it did not create any panic or depression in me.  Simply, I became more interested.  “What is the secret?  Because as the scriptures tell, ‘We are the eternal atman’, why is that I am not aware of it?”  So, like that, something has triggered for many people, and they have become yogis, and they have realized the Self.  So, they have understood what the death means, what happens in the death. 

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  So, I understand that this is the effect of vairagya, what it produces.  So, what is that vairagya, and what is the connection between the thought of death and vairagya?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, a few things can happen. Vairagya means detachment.  Normally, we get to see all people are naturally attached to their physical body, thinking themselves to be the physical body, and also attached to the world, relationships, and so many things, and our properties, matter, materials, everything, this world; we are attracted to this world generally.  But when, if for anybody a strong realization which penetrates into the innermost layers of the mind, what I can tell, just for sake of understanding, that this universe is impermanent, and this physical body is impermanent.  No matter whatever I am going to strive for and I get it, but finally, when the physical body dies, nothing will go with me.  No building will go with me, that I am going to fight with my Guru to take possession of the property of my Guru, and when I die, it will not go with me.  That realization, when it occurs to somebody, then such a person is likely to get the vairagya, detachment, and alternatively such a person who would like to go for the truth, truth of the existence of the Self, know what the truth is actually. 

So like that Buddha, it happened to Buddha, Siddhartha, He lost interest in the kingdom, He was a prince, He was married, He had a beautiful child, beautiful wife.  He became totally restless.  Not everybody can do that.  He left them and went and did tapas, and He became Buddha; He realized the truth, what the truth is.  So, like that, it has happened to many yogis, so that is the detachment that has come when they have understood the impermanence of the physical body, or the world. Means, when we teach, we don’t teach that vairagya means that you have to give up your world or homes or body, anything – nothing.  A vairagya should be a yearning to know the truth, in my opinion, if you maintain that thing is good enough.  You don’t have to go to depression, “O God, I will die, what will happen, it’s all useless.”  No, you just live a normal life.  Because so many participants are here, I don’t want anybody to get confused.  You live a normal life, eat your food, sustain yourself, you enjoy your life, love people, have good relationships; you don’t have to become depressed.  Simply, if you can maintain a yearning that you want to know the truth of your own real Self of existence.  In that process, you will definitely realize the process of death and birth and what happens, why it happens.  So, all these things you will know, then it will be your choice whether you want to be reborn with visualizations in the mind, or you just want to become quiet and get rid of being born.  It’s an individual choice, not to be imposed.  This is what our Guru taught us – while teaching, we will have to be like this.  Like Swamiji Himself used to tell, “You don’t have to run to forest and caves, you can live in your home, live a normal life, but you will become a matured, better personality when you meditate.”  That’s what He used to tell.  You will have the yearning to know the truth.  Just like you want to go and obtain knowledge academically, that doesn’t mean that you have to give up food or you have to give up clothes or you have to give up home, nothing.  You remain in the home, you have good clothes, you take the things, you eat food, then you dedicate time to obtain that knowledge and wisdom.  In the same way for spirituality also, you live a normal life, you have clothes, you have a home, you eat well, and you have to dedicate time if you want to know the truth of your real Self.  That’s why I have always told, “You are much more beyond the birth and death of the physical body.  You practice meditation and you will know yourself.” 

Question:   Thank you, Babaji.  So, to go really to know the truth and to have this yearning, we should understand the impermanence and futility of the entire world, even though we need to keep doing our duties, but we need to understand this.  So how should we inquire about death to win that conviction, that everything is impermanent, and nothing is going to be there?

Babaji Maharaj:   Occasionally or once in a day, once in a week, we need to remember, through the Divine remembrance of the birth and death of the body that death is inevitable. But without getting fearful, just for sake of knowledge, we need to know then what happens to us.  “If I am not this body, am I something else that I am going to exist?  Or am I going to become extinct, finished after this body dies?”  Simply like that if one tries to think, remind oneself on and off in the midst of their life in this world. They can enjoy the life, they can achieve anything, they can think and go on like that, but have to take some time.  For that only, in other words, you have twenty-four hours every day. Just if you take one hour to meditate, all these things will come to you.  You will know the truth eventually of your real Self, about birth and death, the physical body, all these things happen.  The rest of the twenty-three hours, you can be busy with your own job, earning, your life, everything, you can live.  So, that is how you have to live then you will know that one. 

Just like you want to become anything in the world, you want to become a good artist, you want to become a sports personality.  Slowly, slowly, you need to dedicate time.  You want to pass a big examination.  You want to have a good job, high status in the society.  Slowly, slowly, you have to dedicate some time every day to do studies and then you have to appear for the examination.  So, you remain focused, you should not get panicked to pass an examination. Like a valiant soldier, courageously you study well, go to the examination hall and whatever comes in the examination, you write whatever you know, simple; then the result will come, whatever has to happen, it happens.  So, like that, you have to prepare yourself.  That is all.  Every day you practice one hour meditation and then slowly, slowly, you will know the secrets of your own mind, its imaginations and your truth of existence, all these things will be revealed; you will be able to observe. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, what is the connection of the thought of death with meditation?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, to understand the connection with meditation, what the ancient sages understood; to know a certain truth, observing is what is important.  Like in the present days, some great giants of science, they have discovered certain truths; that was through their observation power, whether it was in the laboratory or in the nature, anywhere, anything in any way, the first important thing was through observation power.  Their observation was so sharp, and they realized this truth, whether it was Newton or Einstein or any other; so many scientists it has happened.  In the same way, as Swami Vivekananda said, “We produce spiritual giants.”  So, these spiritual giants of ancient sages, they understood that “We need to keenly observe what the truth is.”  They went on inquiring also, “Am I this body?  No, I cannot be this body because this body has come into existence and it is changing every day, it is ageing, and it will die one day.  Something else must be there.”  As they went on doing, then they discovered meditation.  When they meditated, means they observed, that is one of the important points – you are meditating means you are observing, because all your consciousness is focused inside when you close the eyes; that is the most important thing that master teaches you.  Like we teach “Concentrate your mind and sight” – that mind is the important thing.  You have to focus your mind there.  If your mind is running here, half a mind going to London, half a mind going to shopping mall, half a mind going to cinema hall, like this, then you won’t be able to observe the truth. 

Like you are sitting in front of me, if your mind is all running to somewhere else, then you won’t be able to observe me or you won’t be able to hear me talking properly and your brain will not absorb, the mind will not understand what I am trying to convey.  So, for all these things, your observation power is so important.  So that is meditation’s basic idea.  First you prepare yourself so that you learn to observe, you practice to observe.  For that the body needs to be still.  If the body is moving then your mind won’t be stabilized; it will also get a jerk and it will start dancing and runs away like that.  So, for that, steady, that is the meditation’s idea.  Steadily sit down in any comfortable posture; that’s what our Guru taught.  Then gently close the eyes.  When you close the eyes, your eyeballs and eyelids must not be wavering, it should be steady and stabilized.  Because with that if the eyeballs also wavers then it can give a jerk to the mind also to waver and run away and spin in imaginations.  So, these are important things.  So, we teach, “You fix the eyeballs.”  Fixing your mind and sight means, you understand, fixing your consciousness and your eyeballs there steadily.  We tell “Watch!”  Watch means you observe.  But I don’t tell you what it is that you have to observe, because you will end up observing some objects, some matter; that is what you are used to.  Here, you have to observe something else.  The one that is going to observe is the one to be observed also.  I repeat the sentence, listen all of you.  Meditation; the one who is going to observe is the one who needs to be observed.  The one who is going to watch is the one who needs to be watched means you are going to watch, and you are to be watched.  The mind needs to watch itself.  So, these are the truths of observation.  If you practice meditation that will come, then the truth will be revealed about the mind, about its infinity, about the consciousness of existence that I keep telling repeatedly.  Amongst millions of thoughts, you have a consciousness of existence in your mind, observe that.  That is what Ramana Maharishi said.  “Observe from where the ‘I’ is arising, then your mind will get absorbed.”   So, the mind will get absorbed into that.

  For this we try to give an example of a small droplet and its ocean.  So, droplet needs to get merged with ocean.  So, the mind needs to get absorbed with its Ultimate Truth.  If the mind becomes quiet by observing, then it starts going towards its Ultimate Truth.  If it is not quiet, if it is into chatterbox, it remains away always.  It’s spinning and creating its own world.  Life after life.  That’s what is punarapi jananam, punarapi maranam – “Again and again you are born again and again you have to die”.  This keeps happening, this cycle and where is the time for you to observe?  You are so busy preoccupied with your own birth and death.  And so many things are there to attract you.  Millions and millions and millions, galaxies after galaxies.  Milky ways after Milky ways have been created to attract you, to divert your attention from your real Self so that just now you don’t bother about your real Self.  Lord Yama tells Nachiketa, just to test whether He was really ready to know the real Self.  That’s what the Guru tests.  150 people might sit in front of Him in the meditation.  The first thing the Guru would like to know is how much you all are really interested to know your real Self.  Then when you ask a question, I answer, then it is your ability to observe, to watch me, to pay attention to me when I am answering so that you can understand the meaning of what I am trying to tell, then you do that one.  That’s what Krishna said, “Arjuna, go to the knowers of truth before death shall claim thee.  Asking intelligent questions and aptly paying attention to the Master’s teachings, observe what He is teaching, then adopting such methods achieve the truth to yourself.”  These are all the methods how you will learn observation.  This is how meditation is connected to observation.  Practice meditation means you practice observation.  You practice the concentration, single pointedness of your mind; that has to happen first. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, why it seems that for all these yogis, they all were young or in their childhood when this thought came and had that strong effect?  Why is it that it seems that in childhood or in their young age, this thought gives a stronger effect than to the elder person or to a person that is now older; why is it?  Even for them this thought doesn’t come. 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, one thing I would like to tell, there are so many examples that even after aging, even after being a householder at a certain step these things have come to many people and they who have achieved Self-realization.  We cannot simply tell only at a young age this has happened.  Definitely for many people when they were young and children, young age, youth, these things have come.  So exceptionally, this would have happened.  But for many, after passing the middle age also, people have achieved after doing tapas when they were growing towards the old age also.  So many examples would be there, if you read some scriptures they are always there, this is the thing.  So other things, points are likely that it just happened to them in this life.  When they came across, their thinking power, observation power, understanding power were like that. 

So, this is what I have told, if you all remember.  Even when different children are born to parents, different children might be carrying different tendencies, different capabilities of observation, understanding, all these things.  Like, Newton understood when the apple fell on his head, there is gravity.  So many times, so many things would have fallen on so many people’s heads, they wouldn’t have thought of that.  Hundreds and thousands and millions would have heard Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam; it would not have occurred to them simply at all, simply they would have heard the song.  And many people would have heard the song and bothered about the tune and the other aspects of that song, but not the spiritual meaning.  I have seen many people, they are knowledgeable with the music, they know about the tune, the raaga, and the beats, the rhythm, so many other things, they obtain knowledge, but the actual spiritual meaning gets suppressed.  They don’t bother to know.  That is because they are not carrying the basic nature of observation.  We teach, so many people come in front of us.  In Zoom also, we teach when people ask questions, but only those who have that right apt attention, paying attention ability, observation ability, understanding ability will understand what I am teaching.  Otherwise, they may not understand at all.  Understanding and listening to the commands of the Master is essential.  So, that is very, very important. 

So, these are the reasons.  If a certain person was bringing a basic nature from previous lives, if they were trying and doing sadhana, and they were yearning, so then in this life from childhood itself this yearning would have come, this understanding would have come.  This is possible.  So, these are some of the reasons, likely, which would have triggered them to go into a yearning.  For many, it would not have happened at all.  And it would have happened at a later stage of life also, it can happen.  Not necessary that it should happen only when you are young. 

Question:   Thank you, Babaji.  So, about the fear of death, it seems that this fear of death is prevailing everywhere in the Creation.  No one wants to die actually.  So, why is this fear there?  Why has Nature given this fear to all the Creation, to all the beings? What is the purpose?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, one of the basic reasons is ignorance about the truth of death.  When firmly our consciousness is sitting on the physical body as ‘me’…  So, this one thing, a secure existence is important, so important. When that secure existence is threatened – insecurity, one of the basic reasons for any person, any creature to go into a conflict, that I have told.  Like any animal; when they feel threatened, they don’t know who they are, but their body is them for them, that’s so important.  In the same way for humans, anybody also, their body is themselves.  So, when that is threatened, they feel insecure and go into a conflict.  So, they become fearful, they don’t want to die.  This is one thing. 

   And another thing, ignorance of what happens after death. Who dies, what does the death mean, what really happens?  What is the phenomenon that happens? Like if a doctor gives medicine, he tells what is going to happen to you – if there is any side effect or no side effect, “This can happen, this will not happen”, like that.  This is such a knowledge which is not written in books.  Only such great teachers have spoken who have realized the Self.  To their students they have spoken when they are ready, because we don’t want to panic anybody.  This is a truth, fundamental reality.  This is a knowledge that you have to obtain which can be so helpful to you one day when your body has to die.  But you don’t have to die today itself.  You must know and understand this thing.  Never get confused in our teaching.  We don’t mean any such thing at all.  So, that is why there would be fear, because of ignorance.  One is, we don’t know what death is.  Otherwise, it can be so beautiful once we know what it is. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, how can we overcome that fear and insecurity and teach the next generation about this?

Babaji Maharaj:   Spiritual sadhana.  Spiritual sadhana means the basic idea is to overcome the mind’s imagination effects and take control of the mind; that we think and imagine only when we need to live in this world and we won’t get carried away by our own imaginations.  That’s what I mean to tell.  So, practice, like meditation and other exercises prescribed in the spiritualities, other types of sadhanas are also there.  All these sadhanas are helpful to achieve this thing.  Only such a thing can give you total confidence about yourself once you realize who you are.  Then you will know other secrets of who is going to die.  Once you understand the difference between the mind and the brain and your physical body, all these things you come to know about, then you will know which is the thing which will die and which is the thing which will not die, which will be eternal always.  So, like that, all things will be revealed in meditation. 

Like for example, one sentence I have told, in meditation, slowly if you adopt the right technique and just watch and observe, then slowly all thoughts, all visions, everything will dissolve. Then the pure consciousness remains.  The same mind when it becomes pure consciousness means here, only the consciousness of existence.  Nothing else is visible, no figure, no vision is visible, no thought is visible for you, you cannot know anything, but you know that you exist, you are aware that you exist.  This is the consciousness of existence I keep talking.  When this is experienced, then you will understand, “This is an eternal reality.  This was not an imagination of my mind.”  That you will realize one day.  That was how probably the ancient sages also realized and spoke about the eternal existence, immortality of the Self. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  This is the last question to finish with the theme. India has the culture where you get to hear of the atman, the eternal entity, the philosophy teaches this, and people from a young age can get exposed to that philosophy.  But in the Western countries, they don’t have that.  So, we know meditation is the highest practice, but how important is to get exposure to this philosophy, for the people, the society to understand this spirituality? 

Babaji Maharaj:   So, when one is very young, like a child, the mind will be innocent because it has not been exposed to the outside world, not got attracted or absorbed such things, not got attracted, “This is mine, I need this one, I am this”; all sorts of hundred things are not there.  Then, it can be risky also.  If it is directed, guided in the right sense, in the right direction, it can be molded to reach the higher status of knowledge and wisdom.  If it gets misguided, it can lead to that child going into the wrong path.  So, when it is the wrong path, after a certain age, when it reaches the saturated point…  Here, important point as I have always told, everybody, every soul, knowingly or unknowingly, is searching for happiness.  This one thing is guaranteed for everyone. Whether they know it or they don’t know it, they are searching for happiness, means they want happiness, only then they would like to do anything.  You guide the person, “You have to do like this, you have to do like this”, but after a certain age if they don’t find their happiness in that, such people can get attracted to something else.  So, this is what happens. 

So, if the atmosphere is always guided into the right sense and explained properly to the child, “This is what it is, this you can achieve, this is what you can experience”, then they will pick up and they will go on to this line.  We were fortunate – from childhood we got introduced to spiritual practices, like chanting, bhakti marga, going to places of worship, all these things. We used to chant everything, devotional songs, music, everything was beautiful, then eventually as we came to the teen age when we had to take up meditation, that we understood quickly and we went on. Because this was also one of the basic habits we were told and we picked up – having faith in the Guru.  Like, we learned, one example – when you would have gone to a primary or nursery school to learn a language, when the teacher wrote, say you were learning English, when the teacher wrote like this [draws ‘A’] ‘A’, on the board and ‘B’, and she went on telling “This is ‘A’, this is ‘B, C, D’”, without questioning the child learns.  If you go on questioning “Why I should call this ‘A’, why not the ‘B’ as ‘A’?”, then learning gets delayed.  With total faith you picked up that language.  

Well, in the beginning it is faith.  As you grew up, then you understood that everybody uses the same ‘A’ as ‘A’, ‘B’ as ‘B’ in the language, so that is how you picked up the language.  So, that is how in any knowledge or wisdom, first it is the faith.  If the innocence is there then the faith builds up, it is cultivated.  We believe firmly, then it becomes a matter of self-respect, like “I love you my Lord, my Guru.  I believe in You, whether You want to disturb me or not disturb me. You cut me into pieces, it is now my self-respect, I am going to love You more.”  That was how we held on to our Guru’s lotus feet in our consciousness.  These things came naturally.  So, like that when you get guided and you understand what the truth is, then the truth is revealed, then your faith also becomes knowledge and wisdom eventually.  

So, this is what is needed.  When this gets reduced in the society then the attention gets diverted.  For that reason only I have told many times, you know, fifty, fifty-five years ago when we were small kids of four, five years, the challenge in front of our parents was definitely less.  We were also not exposed to the outside world.  Even a telephone, television, anything was a luxury, meaning not easily available to everyone.  So, we never got exposed and we went on learning, and we were fortunate that we found the right type of teachers both in the school, at home, always.  The primary school, along with the books that they made us to study, they used to talk about moral values, characters and cultures also they used to talk in those days.  I don’t know what happens in the present day.  In the present day, everybody is simply bothered that they need to pass the examination and obtain a degree; more than that they don’t want to bother what they have to learn. Because they need to go for a job, they need to earn, this will be the concern.  But for us, we were told all the beautiful stories from Ramayana, Mahabharata and moral values were explained to us. So all those things sat in us as a character and culture for ourselves.  That’s why the world could not simply exploit us to get sucked; we never got sucked into any nonsense things.  Once we decided “We don’t want this”, we never got attracted to that one.  Our mind was never weak; it was very strong.  

So, this was how we were blessed perhaps, but now as soon as you are born you have a cell phone in your hand, and you get attracted.  See, everything that has been invented or discovered is good, but we need a teacher also.  Like I have told you can obtain knowledge how to shoot the gun, but the wisdom when to shoot and when not to shoot, where not to shoot comes from a Guru.  That Guru-disciple relationship is so natural, so much needed; we learned from our Guru all these things, not simply by books.  Book can write a certain limited knowledge; it cannot elaborately explain.  When there was a teacher in front of us, for one poem the teacher could elaborately explain the feelings in which the poet would have written that poem, so like that, along with the grammar meaning also.  Bhaavartha, that is known as.  Like, this is important in life.  You know life’s secrets, you acquire knowledge.  Along with that you understand your own feelings, how you must control yourself, where you should not get carried away. You should be careful, you should maintain a distance from anything with anybody.  But today we see the younger generation, hardly they are exposed properly, in the proper way to the teachings.  So, these are all the reasons that they don’t get it properly; that is important.  If they get it in the proper guidance, proper teachings – like all of you are blessed, at least you have got a teacher to talk all these things.  I don’t charge anything for these talks.  You ask a question, and I give my opinion, and it is not directed to any individual or any group of individuals; only for educational purpose I spoke all this time.  

Question:   Pranaam Babaji, thank You very much.  Babaji, I have three questions.  My first one is, I’ve heard that at the time close death of a dying person that that person can see people that have departed in their lives.  Is that true or Babaji can You just explain what are Your thoughts on this?

Babaji Maharaj:   No, no, not true.  It’s only in their imaginations that they get to see, it’s a myth. Not in the science of truth. 

Same Questioner:   Okay, and then Babaji, another question I have is some that I’ve heard from conversation with the elders that there are many layers of the body, like physical body there is anamaya kosha, pranamaya kosha, manomaya kosha, vijnanamaya kosha, and anandamaya kosha.  Now Babaji, my question is what are Your thoughts on these?  Are these different layers?  Because You have explained Babaji that death happens to the physical body and not to the mind.  Just want to hear Your thoughts on that, please. 

Babaji Maharaj:   You need to understand in a simple way with one main switch; you don’t have to bother with all these koshas.  Symbolically, teachers would have explained all these things; these are all there.  Just like in the modern days, you know you have a kidney, you have a liver, you have a lung, you have a heart; like that they have explained all these things.  But as common people – we are all common people,  I’m not a neuro expert, but we all know that when brain dies, that’s when actually the doctor declares that “Death has happened.  He has passed away.”  Otherwise, the doctors say, sometimes, even if a heart failure happens, for one or two hours also the brain might still be available a little bit; slowly it dies.  But if the brain dies first, the death happens.  So, this is what you need to understand in a simple way.  Don’t have to bother about so many layers.  Layers are all there, but most of the time, they are in the mind, mind’s imagination. 

   Anamaya kosha is there, that means where we eat, and our food goes; it sustains our physical body.  It’s digestion, all these things, they have spoken as kosha, aavarana, everything.  So, too many botherations may create confusion for you.  I hope this is enough.  The brain death and the mind gets detached from the brain and the mind assumes its next incarnation. 

Same Questioner:   And Babaji, when a person is dead, they do funeral rites, and they tend to explain that you need to put that dead person in a certain posture because of whatever rites that are being done.  Is there any connection at all or you don’t have to follow that at all then?

Babaji Maharaj:   Really it has no connection, because all over the world people die and in different postures.  This is a tradition.  So, usually you respect a tradition and because of that only you have to do that one.  Like usually, even yogis are made to sit if that is possible.  But if it doesn’t happen, also still a yogi would have attained total liberation, not necessary that you have to pass away in a particular posture and place the body in a particular posture, then only the liberation happens.  These are all the traditional beliefs; exact truth hardly anybody knows.  This is the thing.  So, traditions you want to respect, you can follow.  For some reason if it is not possible to follow, you don’t have to worry.  That’s my opinion. 

Same Questioner:   Okay, thank You Babaji. 

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  I have two questions if that’s okay.  The first one is that different cultures and different religions have different ideas around what happens after death, like heaven, for example.  Is that kind of idea of heaven, can that inspire in the same way of creating some faith and some sincerity and detachment or not so much?

Babaji Maharaj:   Generally, in my opinion, with due respect to all religions, all groups, anything, Truth is one.  That’s what will happen.  And it is likely that any one person would have experienced the truth and would have tried to tell the next generation, teach “This is what it is”.  If that has not been able to be understood properly, sometimes in a misguided way a mythical thing can get built up.  And then the next generation, the next generation go on teaching the same thing which may not be the actual truth, it may simply be a myth.  So that’s what happens.  That is why only when you meditate, you will experience the actual truth.  Till then, you have to believe and have faith in somebody else telling.  That’s why Swamiji told, “You meditate and know yourself.”  That is the first-hand knowledge that you can obtain in these things. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji, I understand.  And then You’re talking about the young people with the phones, and maybe getting on the right path is a little bit harder with all of those distractions.  Is that part of Kali Yuga?  Is that just because we’re progressing in this age that each generation seems to have less opportunity to know the truth?  

Babaji Maharaj:   Perhaps that’s why they have told in the age of Kali things will have such effects on human minds.  Only such things will get to be absorbed.  See, that’s what it is.  Like, for example, when we were born, our parents were pious, means God-fearing people or religious people, they practiced such chants.  My mother used to chant God’s name, and we always listened to devotional music.  We were blessed.  Otherwise, at that age, we didn’t have any consciousness of what we are supposed to do.  Whatever we got to do, we learned.  But the same thing may not be blessed for any child of the present day; it is very rare.  Occasionally, one might get blessed if the parents are also on the spirituality or if the parents understand the real truth of spirituality, then only they can impart such knowledge.  My mother imparted such knowledge of bhakti marga in a scientific way, traditional.  They were moderate and they did not have orthodox misbeliefs.  She wanted me to learn the truth on my own by practicing.  So, like that, she taught me.  So, we were blessed.  The present day generation, very less, rarely they will get it.  So, as you are talking, perhaps that is the effect of the age of Kali. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji. 

Question:   Pranaam Babaji.  Thank You very much.  I have two questions, Babaji. Number one is, how to develop vairagya in relationships? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You have to understand one is impermanent and if things don’t work out, you have to accept.  If it works out, you go ahead. Because in a relationship always two different people are involved.  If it is only you, you can develop that you want Self-realization, you can develop that you want to meditate because you don’t have to depend on anybody else.  But if you want to have a relationship with somebody else, apart from what you like, you have to depend on the other person’s likings also.  So, nature of two persons will be there.  Whether it will be tallied or it will go into a clash, you don’t know.  So, you have to be ready.  You have to only try.  If it happens, it happens.  If it doesn’t happen, don’t allow that ‘doesn’t happen’ to spoil your happiness, your peace, your spiritual pursuit which is foremost, vital for you. Because when the death to your physical body happens, nobody will be there to go with you.  So, like this, you have to develop vairagya and understand detachment if it doesn’t happen. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You Babaji.  And the second question is, Lord Kartikeya or Lord Murugan,  another name for Lord Murugan is Shabdabrahna Samudraschya.  Can You just explain what is this, why He is called as Shabdabrahma Samudraschya?

Babaji Maharaj:   Shabdbrahma is the Nada, Nada Brahma also.  Shabdabrahma – The entire creation is made up of sound and sight.  This is one thing in a simple terminology I have tried to explain.  Sound is equally important along with the sight.  If a silent movie you watch, without sound you may not get that thrill.  If the same movie, when it is produced background music is given to a certain scene to create a thrill, a certain sound effect is also given.  So, like that, this creation has happened.  So, perhaps they have explained the in-charge deity’s form is Swami Kartikeya, Subrahmanya.  Shabdhabraha Samudraschya means, Samudra is the vastness, is all pervaded as the Shabdabrahma. 

Same Questioner:   So, is He the Master of the Shabdabrahma? 

Babaji Maharaj:    In that form. You see, there is one God, there are no different Gods.  The same Parabrahman has taken that form also.  So, that’s what they have explained. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji.  Pranaam Babaji.  

Question:   Pranaam, Lord.  I have an experience in the faith of the Divine Guru always being with me, but my meditation before Your manifested form is always better.  What can I do to achieve the same level of focus when we’re not in the Zoom and I’m meditating on my own?

Babaji Maharaj:   Try to remember the name of your Divine Guru.  Repeat the name of your Divine Guru so that your mind can get tuned into that.  Eventually, you will be able to achieve in meditation better results.  So, you remember your Guru’s name. 

Question:   Pranaam Babaji.  There are two questions.  One question is, the meditation is helping us to purify our mind. Does it purify our body also with respect to the disease and the death?  So, normally, when you grow older you are going to get some diseases and then die. 

Babaji Maharaj:   About the physical body, we have to understand, ultimately it has to grow old and go away one day.  Meditation will not cure all type of illnesses and make it [body] not get aged also.  All yogis, all great people have grown old.  Buddha passed away at the age of 80 plus, but when He attained Self-realization, He was very young.  So, like that, the body will go away in its own way.  Definitely, such a person’s body who meditates will become more respectful in terms of purity, because as the mind becomes purified, it will induce the body to remain in purified actions always.  So, this is one thing we can tell.  Other than that, the body will attain old age, and it has to go.  Illness will also come; even for a yogi also, illness will come.  Ramakrishna had throat cancer, Ramana Maharishi had, so all such sages have had their things.  So, this is inevitable. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You.  So, the second question I had was, as we lose physical energy, is it possible to do meditation in a lying posture in bed?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, I understand, you can lie down and try to do it, but you must take care that you don’t fall asleep or become unconscious.  You need to keep your brain alert and try to do that meditation if the physical energy is not good enough, but instead you might try to sit down to a wall, comfortably, like keeping the legs straight instead of folding, if that is difficult; any such methods also you try.  In spite of that, if it’s difficult, you can lie down and try to meditate but take care that you don’t fall asleep.  It’s important. 

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji.

Question:   Hello, Babaji, Namaste.  I have three questions.  My first question is just in relation to the first question You got asked, about seeing dead relatives.  Can I just ask for a bit of elaboration on that, why You don’t believe that, that when we are close the death, it’s imagination?

Babaji Maharaj:   It’s not a question of believing.  In my experience and observation, it doesn’t happen.  That’s my opinion and I stand by my opinion. Because mind, the first important thing is, can give only any such thought or a vision that which it imagines.  It cannot give any truth at all.  Once one person dies, when the body dies and leaves, with that, that person’s connection to that body and the previous life, that form, everything disappears.  Really, in truth, hardly anybody knows what happens to that person.  If any relative is there, that person’s figure, picture, or the body is into memory; they are likely to get generated with a remembrance.  So that’s what happens.  Actual connection does not happen.  This is the truth.  I stand by that one. 

Same Questioner:   Okay.  My second question is when we do die, do You believe that we would meet our deceased relatives?

Babaji Maharaj:   That’s not the death, actually.  These are all mythical stories that have been told and built up since ages.  Many people in the world might believe, but that’s not the truth.  If you read Yoga Vashista, Vashista has explained very scientifically to Lord Rama, “When death happens, the brain dies and the mind gets detached from the brain and then that mind, based on its tendencies, thought habits, it spins and then creates its own world.  It’s an illusion.  Every time an illusion is created.  Whatever it gets to see is a new illusion, it would have forgotten all the previous things.”  So, when you die also, you don’t get to see others’ illusions, you will see only what illusion is created by your consciousness.  This is some of the truth – may not be conclusive, but when you do tapas and observe such things, then you will be able to make out the mind and its imagination powers, creativity, how it can create such things in imagination only. 

Same Questioner:   My last question, sorry Babaji, is about sleep.  When we sleep, are we unconscious?

Babaji Maharaj:   When you sleep, it is the brain which goes to sleep, then the mind gets temporarily detached.  So that’s when you become unconscious of the body, surroundings, temporarily.  As soon as the brain gets up, then the mind gets sucked into the brain’s reflection and you are up. You will tell that “I was sleeping.”  You are there, you don’t disappear, but simply you are unconscious of the surroundings and the body. 

Same Questioner:   And then dreaming and lucid dreaming.  How does that come into play?

Babaji Maharaj:   A dream also happens, a little bit knowledgeably because most part of the brain is sleeping, but a little bit, a minute particle of the brain might be active, then it sucks the mind, and it produces a dream sequence which is short in time.  This universe is like a longer dream that has been produced by a higher consciousness.  You are a part of it as a micro speck, that’s why this appears so real.  And when you are dreaming, also as long as you are dreaming that dream appears so solid and real; until you don’t get up from the dream, you cannot make out that you are dreaming.  But because it is a short-term dream, because the brain’s activation is very little – this is a small, knowledgeable thing – then when that is done, when the brain gets up, you also come out of that dream and that dream is gone and you realize you were dreaming. But still such a dream also can create such havoc in your mind.  Sometimes you will tend to believe if the picture is very strong and solid, long time, you are unable to forget the dream.  Sometimes, by the time you get up in the morning, you would have forgotten what you dreamt.  You would be wondering, “I dreamt something like that, I am forgetting that thing”, but sometimes, years later you will not forget.  So, these are all the illusions created by the collusion of mind with the brain. 

Question:   Pranaam, Babaji.  My question is, before we die, how can we ensure that we are a moral person in all our relationships?  Like, how do we ensure that we are like a good daughter, a good sister and a good disciple?

Babaji Maharaj:   That is the reason we teach spiritual exercises like meditation, remembering the Divinity, or any mantras you chant, so that these things purify the mind. And when the mind is purified, you become a better human being,  you will be able to uphold moral values and understand your status, you can maintain your character and culture in a much better way.  You need to practice spiritual exercise, meditate.

Same Questioner:   Thanks, Babaji.  Pranaam.

End of Session