Dedicated to the lotus feet of the divine guru Shivabalayogi Maharaj


The Self – online Q&A, No. 112

Recorded on 15 October 2022 with worldwide participants.

0:00 Introduction from Babaji
5:15 What is our true nature and why are we not aware of it?
14:52 As Babaji says, the imagination is no ordinary thing
17:17 Can we say the imagination is not real but the experience of the imagination is real?
20:19 The ‘space’ as absolute, the divinity
26:37 The Self was already there, we don’t become the Self, we simply become one with it.
28:50 If we are 100% watching are we abiding in the Self?
29:19 The salt doll analogy that Ramakrishna spoke of
32:03 How has Babaji come out of the ocean to lead us back to it?
42:50 How do I know when in meditation that I am abiding in the Self, as opposed to sleep?
48:25 Do we not need the body to experience the true Self?
51:00 What was the need to come out of the Self to experience this creation?

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji – online Q and A No. 112
The Self

Recorded: 15 October 2022 with worldwide participants

   Babaji Maharaj commences:


Omkaara Naada Brahma Ardhanareeshwara

Sri Jagadguru Naatha Shivabalayogeshwaro Parabrahma Rishii

Jnana Bhakti Vairagya Sidhyartam

Bhikshaandehi cha Sadguru Deva

Baandava Guru Bhaktascha

Svadesho Guru Charana Kamalam

Opening Remarks:

   Offering unconditional surrender at the Lotus Feet of beloved Master Shivabalayogi, I greet you all with my love and blessings.  Happy to be with you all once again, another opportunity, another good day for you all to try and quieten your mind; silencing of the mind is the first step.  And that can appear the most difficult, but it is not impossible.  All that is needed, you have to become quiet in reality.  We all understand, when we tell each other “Hey, be quiet!”  In school, our teachers used to shout at us, “Be quiet!”  Through the mouth we became quiet immediately, we stopped talking anything, we shut our mouths.  But here, if I say, “Hey all of you be quiet!” – not simply through the mouth but through the mind also; you must see that your mind also is quiet and it is not thinking anything else.  That’s the command.  For that only you have to practice this meditation.  Whatever we always ask as instructions.  If there are any newcomers, please listen to me. 

   You can sit in any comfortable posture and just gently keep the eyes closed, then concentrate mind and sight in between eyebrows and just keep watching there.  This is an important point.  If the mind is just watching, then it is not thinking. It has both aspects – it can think and it can watch; means you can apply your mind or yourself to any place, on any object, on anything, then you will become aware of that.  So now you have to apply yourself on yourself.  You understand? Means you have to abide in yourself.  You have to just remain in yourself; the mind has to remain in itself.  Not on any thinking, not in imagination traveling, not creating any illusionary thoughts, no imaginations, nothing.  That is when if I ask you “Become quiet!”  Means you can become quiet.  That was what Ashtavakra asked the King Janaka – “Be quiet!”  He (the king) was ripe.  That was the condition.  He had put a condition “Just before I can sit on the horseback, keeping my first one leg, left leg, and I have to put the right leg to sit on the horse.  Before that time you must be able to give me Self-realization.”  For this Master said, Ashtavakra said “I also have some conditions – three conditions.  First you come down the throne.  You must not feel that you are king.  That is giving you the bad quality of arrogance.  You won’t listen to the Master then.  You come down.  I will be the king now, I will order you.  And once I order, command, you must listen; whatever I ask, you must do that one.”  Then on the way as they were going, He spoke about the philosophy of mind, consciousness, everything.  Finally, He asked the king to sit on the horseback.  As he was sitting, he kept the left leg and he was trying to put the right leg onto the horseback.  Then He uttered, “Quiet!”  The disciple was ripe, he understood. Bodily he became quiet, he stood still, mentally also he became quiet.  When the mind became quiet, he had the samadhi experience – Self-realization; the Self remaining in the Self.  So that is the effort you will have to be towards which you will quieten your mind.

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Today the topic is the Self.  So, Babaji the first question – we have an awareness of our individual self, this ego, our individual consciousness, but Babaji explains that this is not who we really are.  Can Babaji explain again what is our true nature and why have we come to think that we are something different from that?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, now the finer point is all of us, everybody has that consciousness of existence.  Even just for sake of understanding I will use word ‘feeling’, the feeling that you exist. But where and how do you recognize that feeling of existence as yourself? Because a misidentification has happened; the consciousness due to imaginations and being in touch with the brain has shifted its attention over to the body totally. And also into the appearance of this world, thus creating further imaginations in millions and millions of layers.  So, all these things have engulfed us into an illusion, giving ourselves an imagination that we are this body.  And further we have imagined different personalities, like with a name, “I am Shiva Rudra Balayogi, and I belong to this country, I belong to this area of this world, I belong to planet Earth”, and what else.  So hundreds like this.  So all these we call as ego, because we do not exist in any of these forms.  Simply it’s our imagination, and also due to the consciousness shifting and getting involved with the physical body. 

Now to know our real Self, what this consciousness of existence, what is this feeling of that ‘I’ that exists, we need to silently, keenly observe that consciousness of existence.  That is what is the meditation’s prime aim.  We do not know where is the location of this consciousness of existence.  So in one instance, if I tell, “You all concentrate yourself on yourself”, it will be bewildering for people.  They won’t be able to understand, “Where am I supposed to put my concentration?  Where am I supposed to put my attention, focus my attention?” like that.  So that is why the great Masters thought, first it is essential that you get rid of all the imaginations accompanied with this consciousness of existence.  One is the identity of the self – ‘me,’ and then ‘mine.’  “I belong to myself, and this object belongs to me, this name belongs to me; I am of this status, it is mine in the society.” Like that they all have formed subtle bodies within the imagination of the mind.  This is what we call as ego, an individual imagined self which does not exist in that way as imagined by us. 

   So to observe that consciousness of existence, our mind which is into imagination has to become silent.  When it becomes silent, it becomes infinite.  Only an infinite can focus on the infinite.  Like this object matter can hit the object matter, but the matter cannot hit the space.  And space also cannot hit the object matter, cannot touch the object matter.  That is the science in front of us.  So now mind has taken the shape of a matter; all the time, thoughts and visions are there, dramatizing stories.  So it has almost become equivalent to the world that exists outside us, in front of us, that is visible to the eyes, which I have explained as the world has only appearance value, not existence value.  Our imagination also has appearance value and no existence value.  Through that we are able to see this world, but to see ourselves actually, we have to become that type of infinite.  So for that we are to quieten the mind, silence the mind – that is important.

 First job is to achieve silence of the mind, then that mind also becomes a pure consciousness, then its attention easily goes to itself.  At that time, we discover the thing that was imagining, and the thing that was giving us the feeling of ‘I existing,’ that ‘I am there,’ that consciousness of existence, they both are same in substance, infinite form.  Like, nobody has seen the mind in naked eyes, but everybody knows they have a mind, but they recognize the mind based on thoughts and visions only.  But this mind is a combination of consciousness and energy.  Now, consciousness means for me, wherever you apply your mind or your consciousness, you can become aware of that substance, that existence.  So if you apply this mind, this consciousness to itself, then you can become aware of its existence.  And you will also discover that is where the ‘I’ consciousness is arising – ‘I am.’  That’s what great Masters like Ramana Maharishi taught, “Who am I?”  This is how, after inquiring, you have to pay attention, observe from where the ‘I’ is coming.  Here, in other words, first we try to silence the mind, then you will be able to observe that as the ‘I’; that is infinite. You will realize that cannot be seen by eyes, physical eyes; you cannot touch that one, but yet you are there.  You cannot see yourself by physical eyes, but yet you are there.  So these are some of the basic clues when you do tapas. One day when you are able to achieve total silence of the mind, is possible when you continuously pursue, consistently practice and gain the ability, just you watch but you do not think.  That’s a great achievement, anybody who can achieve it.   It’s a great thing to stop the mind and just be able to watch the mind.  When you watch the mind, then all thoughts and visions would have disappeared, then you will realize the mind is watching itself.  That mind which is watching itself is that consciousness of existence; that is the ‘I’. That is how we realize that is ‘I am’ actually, and that is so amazing.  The sages simply called it as ‘Tattva‘ – That, because they realized any term we are going to use to identify will be an imagination, will have to give some criteria; because of this we named it like this, and then we have to imagine, but the truth could be much more beyond actually.  It is boundless.  ‘Ananta’ word they used – the sages.  Ananta is boundless, total boundless.  So like that, this can be realized only when you deeply meditate, pursue and when you reach the highest state, then you will be able to realize this.   That is what is realization – you settle in yourself, you abide in the Self, you in yourself.

Comment:   Thank You Babaji.  Baba covered so much in that answer.

Babaji Maharaj:   Simply it starts coming.  I forgot I should stop also, I went on talking, flow [laughs].

Question:   It’s great Babaji.  Most of the questions have been covered.  But Babaji, to talk about the imagination a little more, imagination has taken us away from the Self as Babaji has said, and Babaji also says that this imagination is no ordinary thing.  This whole Creation has happened due to the imagination itself.

Babaji Maharaj:   Consciousness has the ability to imagine.  In other words, consciousness has the ability to be creative; it can create.  Only problem arises, when we imagine and create, then we forget that we have imagined that’s why this Creation is there.  So then it would have grown much beyond us, when we would have imagined ourselves into a narrow space of physical body.  Whereas we are the vast space, we imagine ourselves as the body we become very small, a small ant, or a small worm in this creation, solar system, Milky Way, galaxies and what not, everything is there.  Every day keeps happening – new star appearing, new planet discovered, so many things,  it’s boundless, mind boggling, we cannot stop.  You go on observing – it will be happening, happening, galaxies after galaxies after galaxies and space and galaxy.  Space is also boundless.  Galaxies also seem to be boundless for a while.  But one important thing, space holds.  No matter how many galaxies, the space can hold all of that, because space is in the stillness, is all-pervaded. It has no appearance and disappearance, whereas all stars and everything which has appeared will disappear in its shape.  So, also I tell, when you imagine, a thought appears in your mind. Watching that thought, the same mind which imagined about that thought forgets that “This thought is there because of my imagination,” and it gets involved with that thought as if that thought is a reality.  That is the power of illusion.

Question:   But Babaji, this imagination is within this Self; all of creation must have used the Self as the raw material, but this imagination is not real.  The experience of the imagination Babaji has said is real; you are experiencing the illusion, however the illusion does not…

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, just like the things appearance in the dream might be real.  But all the objects that have appeared in that dream are not real; they will disappear.  They have no existence value, they have only appearance value.  We can tell it has appeared.  Yes, it is true.  If you say this world is appearing, I’m able to see this world – that is true.  But this has no permanent existence value. It has appeared and it is going to disappear.  So that’s what would happen.  So, in the same mind also, whatever imaginations that have happened, they are all bound within the mind only; it cannot go out of the mind.  Because when the mind creates, that is nothing else other than the mind.  So, mind itself becomes the raw material, and within itself, it becoming the screen, the appearance is imagined and it appears as soon as the imagination.  So that is that natural power that is there.  So, if anybody asks, “How is that it’s possible for it to imagine?” It is able to imagine; that is its power, its nature. It is able to create, otherwise the creation wouldn’t have happened.  So that’s how we take the clue of the mind, and what are all the things that it imagines, in the same way a Supreme Consciousness, much bigger consciousness, which is holding this universe.  But we have imagined ourselves to be a small micro speck of this Creation in this body.  That’s why we are miserable.  We are unhappy.  We are looking for that peace and happiness.  Everybody wants peace, but they imagine in something else about the peace, that’s why there is no peace.  And about ourselves also, we have narrowed it.  That is what we call ‘individual imagined self’, whereas we are this vast space.  This can be experienced only in deeper samadhi state when you are totally able to get rid of all created things of the mind; mind totally becomes still and silent once for all.  That is what is known as the samadhi state.  In there, simply this one single Self exists in itself.

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  So, to ask a bit more about the space that Babaji talks about.  It can be bewildering for some to think of this space because we have an imagination that it’s a void place, this empty space – it seems like nothing, but Babaji explains it is something.  Can Baba talk a little bit about the space?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah.  I told – to experience an object matter, you need another object.  Like to experience the existence of this universe or world, you need this physical body.  If this physical body goes, if the brain dies or stops functioning, then the consciousness that we are cannot experience this world at all; it doesn’t exist.  In the same way, if you need to experience the space, you have to become space. But if I use the word space, it could be awful for some people, “What is this?  Space is nothing and you have to become nothing to experience the nothing.”  But it is not like that.  Space – it appears to be nothing only because of the imagination we have absorbed.  Probably since childhood in the school and the teaching, from others, by reading, these imaginations of terminology have sat into our mind; it has been fed, like brainwashed.  Like first when the teacher said, “The void place in between two walls is known as space.”  So we started imagining everything that is void is space.  So it appeared to be everywhere.  But more than that we never bothered to know.  We simply assumed whatever is void, that is space.  “Oh, space is everywhere.”  That is how we thought and we concluded and that is sitting in our mind.  But is there any way if we can become the space, then we might be able to experience the space?  That is how ancient sages also thought. 

   Some of the Upanishads while they were discussing they thought – like this they used to; “Which is bigger, the Divinity or the space?”  Then others, they answer, “Nothing, no one of them can be bigger, because they both are not different.  They both cannot be different,” they say.  Their argument is – then they say the clues, “If one is bigger than the other, at least there is another existence.  As long as there is another existence, one of them cannot become absolute.  If the space is different, and Divinity is different, then either of the two cannot be absolute, cannot be God actually.  They simply exist.  That’s what we have to recognize.  That is the reason they recognized the absolute as Divinity – like that.  There is no difference between space and Divinity.  This you can experience when you become that space itself or when you become the mind, when you are able to settle down to the mind, not into the imaginations of the mind, they talk.  Forget about the imaginations; you get rid of all imaginations, then you will see that you cannot make the mind itself to disappear.  You can make everything else disappear.  If you become quiet, everything becomes quiet, but just becoming quiet you don’t disappear, that ‘I’, the consciousness of existence will not disappear; it will always be there.  So thus, we recognize ourselves as that infinite.  Infinite means, which cannot be pursued by object matter, by the eyes, naked eyes, by this body, by hearing, by smelling, by touching; nothing is possible.  So, that is how we have to go to that Self, that consciousness of existence, then we can experience this space as Supreme Consciousness.  It is not simply an inert existence, ordinary inert existence. 

   That’s what in the Gayatri Mantra also, as it says, ‘Bhargo Devasya Dheemahi’ – if we adopt the remembrance of this space in our space which is mind, then our sins and unhappiness will be washed away.  That is why this space which we are thinking as space hitherto is not simply space, it is divine in nature.  That means, our own mind which is infinite – we, are also connected to this Divinity.  Only then we are able to experience this Supreme Consciousness, otherwise we would not have been able to experience.  Scientifically they thought.  Means, that is what is the final definition as I said, only the matter can experience the existence of the matter; infinite can experience the existence of the infinity; only the Self can experience the existence of the Self.  Finally, we come to that.  This world or the matter cannot experience the existence of the Self because it has been created.  It has to be disappeared, it has to disappear, then that infinite which created these things that are in the mind experiences itself as one with the all-pervaded Self.  That’s how it merges with the Self.  So, these things – that is how it is discussed in samadhi, Self, all these things.

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  Babaji says that the Self is always there; it was never born and it never dies.  And that when we achieve Self-realization, we don’t become the Self as it was already there.  We simply become one with it.  Can Babaji explain this please?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, when you deeply go into meditation, pursuing quietening the mind, as the mind becomes silent, silent, silent, total silence is achieved, then also you will experience that you as the consciousness of existence has not disappeared.  So then we come to conclusion this ‘I’ consciousness must be beyond an imagination, because now, whatever I imagine, I have got rid of, and I have become silent. I am totally silent, I am not imagining yet this consciousness of existence has not disappeared.  That means this consciousness of existence is not an imagined one.  If I had imagined, then I would have been different other than this consciousness of existence, but still I am there; that is there when one pursues, the one wants to watch, and then it discovers the one who wanted to watch is that substance for which it is trying to watch.  It discovered.  I wanted to see that Self but I discovered that ‘I’ is that Self.  So how can I see?  I cannot see because there is no duality.  Seer and seen would have vanished by then.  Then there is nothing to be seen.  Only you experience.  You become aware that one single Self exists in itself.  When you go further, beyond bliss peacefully, you totally settle down.  That’s when you become totally quiet and silent.  Beyond any explanation, beyond any imaginations, beyond bliss, it is Supreme Peace.

Question:   Thank You, Baba.  So, hundred percent watching in meditation, the instruction to ‘just watch’, if we are hundred percent watching then it’s the same as abiding in the Self.  Is that correct?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, because when hundred percent you are watching, you are not thinking anything.  You cannot think of anything at all.  All thinking stops, finishes.

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Could Babaji tell the Ramakrishna analogy?  When Ramakrishna was asked “What is Self-realization?”, He talked about the salt doll.  Could Babaji tell the significance of that analogy?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, you see, when we begin, we begin with an individual imagined Self, “I want to realize that Self, what is that Divinity?”   So, as long as I have this imagined Self as me, that Self is like a Divine for me.  So then we tried to pursue, we have the method.  Like the salt doll, wanting to know the depth, it has to jump into the sea, ocean.  Just by sitting on the banks of the ocean, it cannot know the depth.  If it has to measure, it has to jump in the ocean, but when it jumps, it disappears – salt doll. It melts.  The same way we try to meditate, we as an individual imagined self want to know what that Self is.  For that the Master teaches you simply become quiet.  Means stop all your imaginations, because whatever you imagine, it is not the truth; it is only an appearance of your imagination.  An imagined thing cannot be real in science.  Everything appears to be nothing.  Then you go to that level.  When you stop all imagination, then what remains?  Then you discover as in the beginning as an individual imagined self, as an individual like as a Shiva Rudra Balayogi, as a Srinivas Dikshit who wanted to become Self-realized, he is not there at all.   Who was there?  I had imagined only, but I do not exist in that form and this is the ‘I’ which is beyond this Shiva Rudra Balayogi also.  This is not just Shiva Rudra Balayogi.  Shiva Rudra Balayogi people address for this body which is not me, beyond that.  Like that it realizes, so by then that individual imagined self would have melted and disappeared, dissolved.  It is no more there.  In my imagination there is no Shiva Rudra Balayogi, but only for sake of communication and understanding, people recognize this as Shiva Rudra Balayogi.   But Shiva Rudra Balayogi does not keep thinking “I am Self-realized, I am Self-realized.” Even if somebody tells me “You are not Self-realized,” it’s simply amusing and nothing else.

Question:   But Baba has somehow come out of the ocean to tell us how to get back to the ocean. Babaji teaches; somehow that salt doll is able to given a nearest imagination.  How does that happen Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   This is really amazing and wondrous things.  I may not be able to exactly conclusively put it, however, a little bit I will try to say in a few words with an imagination.  Now, first we have to think like this.  The salt doll has come back alive.  As salt doll it has come back.  But this salt doll is fully aware that it is one with the… in fact what I would like to say, the salt doll has melted in the ocean; the same salt if it comes out, it has come out like a droplet of the ocean, bubble of the ocean.  And then it is now totally aware that it is one with the ocean, it is not this bubble.  It has no more imagination itself as the bubble.  Just to talk to others who are on the banks of the ocean  He talks to them.  All of you are also those waves, are those bubbles, those droplets; all of you belong to this ocean only.  Don’t keep holding on to the ground there.  Come back to the ocean, you will all realize you are the ocean.  This is how you have to do; this is the method.  This is how you can jump into the ocean.  This is how you can do; you don’t have to be afraid. Simply you will melt and become one with the ocean.  You won’t totally disappear because you cannot make yourself disappear.  You will be there just like I am here. 

This is the really greatest wonder perhaps which we may not be able to define exactly as it is.  It’s very difficult to say conclusively.  But yet, by the Divine ordainment, all Self-realized souls who have come out have remained like this. Their activities will be limited.  Like to somewhat extent for the last twenty-two years, we practiced this skill.  I have told in other sentences – to go to samadhi, take the mind to samadhi is a different skill.  You become silent, you become silent, you become silent, just watch.  Then after that you bring yourself back into the level of brain – is another skill that you have to practice.  Only when you come to the level of the brain, you can talk to the people who are in touch with the brain.  People of this world, they depend totally on the brain; through that only they know their mind.  But they have to use and live in this world with the brain only.  Without that they cannot live, they don’t know anything else.  For them I have to teach.  Whereas you keep your brain healthy, you live in this world also.  But there is another great truth about yourself is there beyond the existence of the brain and this physical body, its birth and death, beyond the existence of this world, its appearance and disappearance, there is an amazing greatest truth which I cannot demonstrate it now.  Because you have to become infinite.  Until you don’t become Infinite, you cannot see.  So as a Master, I have to raise the ability of a student so that his understanding capacity increases, then his observation capacity increases, then he gives up all his imagined individual things, then it will be visible for him.  A Master as a torchbearer can inspire, keep talking and take a student to that level.  That is why Krishna said, “Amongst millions, only one really feels interested to go on this path.  And among such millions, only one really goes on this path.”  People fall out after some time; they don’t try to understand. They try to understand the Master also and then fail, because they will build up such definitions.  If the Master is eating a chocolate, he is not Self-realized.  If the Master is having proper clothes, he is not Self-realized.  Means they would have defined it to themselves, they would have imagined into so many things.  But that is not the Self-realized soul.  Nobody can see; how can you know that I’m Self-realized or not?  Only my consciousness is quiet.  Others have to have faith, a simple belief.  If they have faith, what the gain is, they will feel inspired to do the same thing that I did, as a guide they will be able to do and one day they will be able to achieve this Self-realization.  That is the benefit.  That’s how the Master can help a student.  That way.  So we always tell I am not important as this physical body, you are more important, your own life is precious, your consciousness is precious, your mind is that which is troubling you.  Whatever you imagine it appears to be so for you but that is not the truth.  Become quiet, and then see the truth to yourself.  That’s how a Master tells.  I am just expressing my opinion.  You do it and you experience and you tell your opinion.  Like that the Master has to teach and this phenomenon is an amazing wonder.

Exactly conclusively, we may never be able to put it – how a Self-realized soul comes back to this level and is able to… Because everything, we are aware everything appears the same for any ordinary person, but simply my mind is not dramatizing or picturizing anything, it is quiet.  So that means it is aware that this is only an appearance and it will disappear.  As soon as this body disappears, this will also disappear.  This body is holding as the projector; these eyes, this brain’s reflections, it is all holding this universe.  As soon as this projector stops, everything stops.  We are very well aware.  It may not be able to prove on the stage “This is how it happened”.  But I can explain.  This is how after long observations, trying to think how we can present this truth – it is not easy.  That’s why everybody may not accept this truth.  Only those students who have faith in us may try to reason out – “There may be some truth in this.”  You don’t have to accept this in total good faith.  At least you can visualize or try to ponder, contemplate, “Maybe something in this.  Let me also try to quieten the mind.”  Like I told, only the infinite thing can experience the infinite and the matter experiences the matter’s existence.  Like infinite cannot touch this matter at all.  Only through this body only we can touch the screen or do anything.  I as that infinite cannot touch, because this does not exist for me.  Anything that is in your mind, you cannot touch it as the mind.  Even with your hands also you cannot touch whatever is in the mind, nothing.  Only that mind can touch it, make it disappear, make it remain there.  It can only handle; only the mind can handle, nothing else can handle.  Brain cannot handle, brain cannot stop the mind.  If the brain stops through any other means the brain’s health might get disturbed.  So that is why in spirituality you keep the health of the brain, so that you can use it into this world.  But the mind itself, let it stop itself, let it become quiet.  That is the method that has been involved in meditation.  And that is how you go – infinity and matter.  Matter goes in its own way.  Infinity merges in its own way.  They both – simply an imagination only can experience; they both cannot touch each other.  Your objects in your mind cannot touch your mind.  And your mind also cannot touch the objects that is in itself.  It has simply imagined it is there.  But the mind doesn’t touch.  It experiences only in imagination.  If you ponder over, contemplate, think in your mind, your mind cannot touch the objects that are in the mind.  In imagination only it experiences the existence of such objects that are in the mind.  And all the objects that are in the mind cannot touch the mind, cannot disturb the mind in any way, cannot cut the mind, slay the mind, soak the mind; the object cannot make it disappear.  This is what in Bhagavad Gita’s language “No weapons can slay the Self.  And no fire can burn the Self.”  That’s how they said this is what the meaning, simple meaning if we take the mind and the objects that are in the mind. They both may experience in the imagination, but cannot touch each other.  That is how one comes to a conclusion, everything is illusion.  Simply an appearance is there; it will disappear.  The moment consciousness is withdrawn, consciousness becomes quiet, everything disappears.

Comment:   Thank You so much Babaji, it’s so inspiring.  We’re incredibly lucky to have Baba here to teach us, to guide us in this way.

Question:   Namaste Babaji.  I had this question about the meditation part where You said the Self-realization is really pratyabhinjna, means recognizing who you really are, as you are, right?  It’s just a recognition process.  You’re already there, as ‘I.’  Knowing who that ‘I’ is is pratyabhinjna.  But what I wanted to ask is, how do I know when I sit in meditation whether I’m abiding in the consciousness of existence of Satchidananda, how do I know that as opposed to sleep, which is susuphti, where also you don’t have any thoughts, but when post sleep you say “I had a good sleep.”  So, what is it…

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, I will talk in a simpler terminology.  I won’t use any of the scriptures.  Susuphti, Jagruti – let them in the margin for a while.  Now, if your mind becomes quiet, you will realize you are that mind, and that is the mind which is not disappearing, whereas all other thoughts and visions can disappear when you become quiet.  That’s what ‘just watch, just watch’, means this is the experience; you will experience.  And as thoughts disappear, they will all go, you will know that you are not disappearing.  Suddenly you will discover that you are not disappearing; you are there. No matter how much quiet you become, you are there. You become quiet, you are there.  So, that is how you will know.  When you are totally quiet, you are abiding in yourself because you are not imagining anything.  That means your mind is not moving or spinning in any way.  So that is how in the same way when you reach the stage of samadhi, then you will realize you are just there.  Only in duality you can experience this, you are there.  And the final merger happens and there is nothing that you have to experience.

Same Questioner:  But how do I know when sometimes my body slouches and I kind of, you know, I’m waving, like sleeping?  And at the same time, I think I’m meditating because I am still conscious of myself, my existence. Is there a time when people do fall asleep when they’re meditating and they think they’re meditating?               

Babaji Maharaj:   No, it doesn’t happen.  If you fall asleep, you become totally unconscious, temporarily.  So, you won’t be able to know this.  Only know when the all the thoughts and visions in the mind stop, at that time, what you experience as the truth of existence.  That’s what I’m trying to explain, give the clue.  At that time, what you experience is your own existence.  For this to happen, your body must be alert, brain must be alert; it must not fall asleep.  Because with the help of the brain, the illusion has happened. With the help of the brain only you have to remove the illusion.  Just like with imagination only, you have gone into the air and flying an aircraft.  With that imagination only you have to bring down the aircraft also.  Everything is in imagination.  Using the same imagination you get rid of the imagination, then you experience the truth.  As long as there is imagination in the mind, you don’t experience the truth; you experience only what you imagine.  That is important.  An imagination is not always single; it will be in dualities.  One after another, one after another, thought after thought, thought after thought keeps coming.  So that means you are not yet experiencing the Self or yourself.  I have told also in between every thought there is a gap. That gap is the Self, that is the consciousness of existence where your attention has to go, then you will realize that gap paying attention to itself, but that gap is paying attention to the imagined thoughts.  This is how you will know.  There are myths and many misunderstandings about meditation.  All thoughts and visions must come to an end.  Silence of the mind.  When there is no imagination, when it is only a consciousness of existence, then you know that as the truth.

Same Questioner:   It’s also possible to be just sitting and sleeping?

Babaji Maharaj:   If you’re sleeping, you won’t know anything properly.  You might be dreaming.  Another dream comes, a big story happens.  When there is a story, the Self is not the story.  The story is always an imagined one.  Keep meditating, when you rise to that level only, you will know, otherwise it can be mind boggling and confusing, you might become bewildered.  I will pray for you.

Question:   Yes, good morning, Baba.  When Ramana Maharishi was meditating in the caves on Arunachala Mountain, what I’ve read is that His only desire was to abide in Self.  He had no other interest in anything in life or the world or anything.  He just wanted to abide in Self.  And He was so immersed in that endeavor that He lost consciousness of His body, and rats would eat at His feet and He just completely lost bodily consciousness.  So, what I’m wondering is – is it so that we don’t need to have a body in order to experience truth, the true Self?

Babaji Maharaj:   No, the truth can be experienced in a duality that it exists.  Once you merge with the truth, there is nothing that you have to experience.  Until you merge with the truth, you need the body.  That’s why a human life is very rarest of rare gems  it is considered.  So, you can do the sadhana by keeping the brain alert.  Then you can abide by yourself.  Getting rid of all imaginations, you can quieten your mind and eventually get absorbed into the Self.

Same Questioner:   So, I guess my question then also is, as we’re pursuing this understanding or this experience of Self, should we understand that our bodies are just an illusion right now; they appear real, but they’re not real?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see its appearance, but it is in the midst of illusion, you cannot try to prove its existence or non-existence.  Just now if you understand it is impermanent, that is good enough.  Otherwise the mind can get confused too much, until you don’t experience the actual truth.  So, let the body be in its place, and using this body you try to quieten the mind then you will realize the truth.

Same Questioner:   Okay, Thank You.

Question:   Pranaam Maharaj.  So Maharaj, my question is about Supreme Self.  So as You said that we are part of the Supreme Self itself.  So as a Supreme Self, one fine morning, it thought that to experience it has all the knowledge of the universe, and it wants to experience, like knowledge of mango’s taste, but to eat the mango, he incarnated himself as Rana Munshi or Baba Shiva Rudra Balayogi.  So, it comes in the form of shape and name itself.  Now, it’s like that entity is coming out of the shed, and he’s got lost in the world and he wants to go back to the shed itself.  So what was the requirement itself to come out of the shed itself?  It’s like going back and forth.

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, first thing, it is not the Supreme Consciousness as absolute totally itself became Rana Munshi.  Simply a portion of the consciousness came out and imagined.  When it imagined, means it created.  In the beginning it was totally aware it’s only a creation; it did not get involved.  That’s what I have explained.  That is the concept of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva.  That’s why they are also considered as Divinity, Divine, Aadhimurthies, but the next generations of angels, demons, they all became corrupted, because insecurity, power, wanting to taste mango or orange or anything, all this started happening; and a small track became Rana Munshi also.  

Simply it is impossible to tell the exact reason why and how this happened; it can be mind boggling.  A seeker is advised not to bother too much because you can get confused and get involved into the whirlpool.  However, for sake of understanding a little bit clue, possibility, need not be conclusive,  understand this.  An existence can be experienced only in duality.  When you come out of yourself only, you know your qualities, what you really are.  And you can recognize yourself, you can understand that you exist as a permanent entity.  When you become that, you don’t even realize that you are a tiger when you are a tiger.  You simply behave according to your nature.  That is all.  Only another person, it can be so scary, “My God, it is a tiger which is in front of me.  It can devour me into pieces any moment.” Like that.  Probably for this reason, the Self’s droplet came out and then when it goes back it realizes it is a permanent entity, eternal existence.  That could be the reason.  More than that there is no other reason why this has to happen.

End of Session

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