Recorded on 31st December 2023 with worldwide participants

0:00 Intro
0:08 How do we shape a better future for ourself?
1:27 How can we remove or change our latent tendencies?
5:19 Should we focus on our Self rather than the body and mind?
7:33 So how we perceive ourself is important?
8:40 Do all bodies and beings exist in one consciousness?
11:58 The Truth of our Existence revealed when we silence the mind.
15:30 Mind when it is silent it is pure consciousness and when it moves it is mind?
18:12 Knowledge requires a mind but awareness does not?
19:34 The wheel/axle analogy – what is beyond the almost stationary point at the middle of the axle?
24:46 Are awareness and existence the same?
26:26 Is it ok to consider consciousness as a field of all possibilities?
26:45 At every moment we have a chance to be aware of the Self as opposed to the mind and body?
28:33 What is everywhere, we don’t notice.
33:27 Latent tendencies, acquired habits and previous resolutions.
34:54 Do we hold our current situation by holding on to our thoughts?
38:55 Having a silent mind versus changing our thinking when in the world.
43:41 How do we know when we are Self Realised?
45:31 Do we have to keep our mind quiet at the time of death?
47:59 What is the true meaning of dharma? Is it a part of Brahman or is it an imagination?
51:29 During the five year Tapas, was it the higher consciousness that prompted Babaji to be brought out of samadhi?
53:22 Is the state of enlightenment permanent or does it have to be worked on all the time?
58:20 Are there samskaras that continue to come up fro the past that we need to deal with consciously?
1:02:33 Our final experiences are not happy ones, with the body failing, in pain.
1:05:00 What causes the realisation that the world is not going to give what we are really seeking?
1:08:17 How to work with Swamiji’s image?

Shaping a Better Future, In Quest of Truth – Q&A with Babaji, No. 205

YouTube link: https://youtu.be/IUGCvm5VXzk
31st December 2023 with US participants

Questioner:

So, Baba, first question is, how do we shape a better future for ourselves? 

Shri Babaji:

See, in our mind, when we think, if we can think positively, non-violent, free from the ‘six enemies’ that I have spoken earlier, of the extreme greed, extreme anger, extreme stinginess, and extreme attachment to materialistic world, false pride, and jealousy. Never allow these things to come to the mind. 


And then if at all you have to think, think positively, think about the Divine, think about the Atman, think about helping others, think about living for this world. 

So, thus, if you can be positive, you can shape a better positive destiny for yourself. So, that’s the important thing. 


Same Questioner:

Well Baba, that’s often easier said than done. You know, how can we remove or at least change our latent tendencies? You know, we all have analyzed and made judgments, and those judgments are kind of determining how we see and act in the world.

Shri Babaji:


Yeah, you see, apart from meditation, there are several methods. 


Being in the company of noble as much as possible. Noble, saintly people. So, that will induce you into a noble thinking always. Like when you sit with me, you would like to think about the Self, Atman, would like to think about helping others. I expect at least that any of my answers or my talks will not induce anybody to go for drugs, alcohol, or taking revenge, or being arrogant, or anger, all such things, because we don’t want to talk about that. So, that is the company of the noble and saintly people. 


And then being on the devotional path. Remember that God is in you, in your heart, within you. That’s what is peace within you. In everything as everything – try to see this – the Divinity, in everything as everything. So, everywhere it is the Divine, and then you will be afraid of thinking even, bringing such a wrong thing in the mind at all. Remember that the Guru is always watching you. The Divine is watching you. 


And practice. If at all you want to sing something, you sing devotional songs. Be devotional. Remember God all the time. As much as possible. Even in the midst of your work, your livelihood, work, and your other responsibilities as a householder, anything. Even if you are baking a bread, in the mind try to think about God, remember the Divinity. Practice that one, and then meditate. Practice meditation. Then your mind gets purified. 


So, when your mind gets purified, no corrupted thought can come at all. All the tendencies, wrong negative tendencies will be washed away once for all. 


That’s how you know, in a simple way, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to tell. Today, majority of people in the world may find it very insignificant, but it was very significant for us, belonging to that culture, that era, that time. He used to tell, “Do not look at the face of a woman, look at her feet. Then all the evil thoughts will fly away.” Like that, we have to adopt. Once you adopt the positive things, the negative things will fly away, will dissolve, the tendencies will all dissolve. 


Like that, consistently you have to practice. Otherwise the mind will come back to the corruption. Once you get to see, you become attached to your own blood and other things. Try to see universally the Divinity everywhere.


Same Questioner:


Baba, that’s one way that we all can handle our mind, and all its projections. But, you know, another thing that seems to have been important in my life, is the conviction of who I am. You know, we’ve talked about you can imagine yourself as a body and mind, or you can imagine yourself of this ‘consciousness of existence’ – and by focusing on that rather than on the body-mind, because then you get into that whole storm of ideas and imagination. 

Shri Babaji:

Yeah definitely, of course, that is the highest and the final. Once you become aware of yourself as that pure consciousness, then nothing is there. You would have risen from the dualities of the world, neither good nor bad of the world comes to the mind, it’s in the purest form of pure consciousness. So, then you would have stopped the future totally. You see, as long as there is a future, you need to shape for the future. If the future itself is stopped, all problem ends. So, that is the highest, finally. 


So, as we advised earlier, when you have to think, try to think about the divine, saintly people, noble things, that you have to be considerate, you have to be careful. At the same time, you don’t have to be a fool in this world, you have to be intelligent, careful, so that others do not exploit you, you need to defend yourself. So, while defending, you don’t have to allow your mind to become corrupted. Like I have always told, if anybody attacks our Ashram, we will defend. But we don’t allow our minds to become corrupted all the time. We don’t keep thinking. 


But finally, go for Self-Realization. So, then when the Self Awareness comes, that conviction that the world is impermanent and you are ‘That’, that Truth – so, that can take care of the future, your future is only Divinity. 


Same Questioner:


So, how we perceive ourself, how the mind perceives ourself, is important?

Shri Babaji:


Yeah, you see, we have to understand this body is impermanent; it is born and it’s going to die. But ‘I’, the ‘I’ feeling that is emerging inside, is always going to be there. That means that ‘I’ who is the real ‘I’ will always be there as an Eternal Entity. And it is the purest form to become aware, once you are aware of that. So, you need to have that conviction – “This world is impermanent and I am that Atman, I am the Soul.” So, that will be very helpful. Like this, always positive thinking. If at all you have to think, you think positively… and try not to think at all. Like that. 


Same Questioner:


Just be. 


Shri Babaji:


Just be there, be in yourself. 


Same Questioner:


Baba, consciousness is homogeneous… I’m making a statement, but I am asking a question too. Is consciousness homogeneous? It’s only one, there’s only one consciousness expressing itself through unlimited number of forms and phenomena. That means that all bodies and all beings exist in one consciousness. Is that correct? 


Shri Babaji:


Yeah, it is one universal consciousness, but because of coming in touch with the brain, it has lost its original awareness of being in the universal consciousness. It has become a droplet, and thus an ego has happened to misidentifying the Self as ‘me’, body as ‘me’, and then the ‘mine’. ‘Me’ and ‘mine’ is the problem starting always. So that’s how the consciousness becomes corrupted and becomes mind. So this is what has happened, though it is the same consciousness. 


Yesterday also while answering I was telling, you keep several earthen pots, in all it is the same space. Because we are above that earthen pot, we can be aware it is the same space. But if that space keeps thinking, “I am the earthen pot,” and it wants to break another earthen pot, not allow that to flourish, or be in the existence, so that is the jealousy, that is the false pride that comes. We want to attack. So that’s because of the ignorance. It is the same space thinking to finish the same space. So, that is how the droplets trying to finish each other, not realizing we are all one ocean. We belong to oneness. That’s what is needed to become aware. 


Through sadhana only can become aware, not by listening to a lecture, not by reading a scripture. You can listen. You can read. You need to. It is recommended, to motivate yourself, to feel inspired. Just now when you listen to these questions, I hope and I am sure that you will be inspired to go for that. So that is necessary. But you must not stop there. If you don’t practice, then the mind will again become corrupted. Once we finish this Zoom class, the Q&A is over, then it will go back to its own thinking again, its tendencies; its habitual. That habit needs to be brought to a halt. That is the firm conviction we need to have all the time. 


We need to practice, not just for one hour, or for one minute, that’s not. A Realization is that all the time you are in the Awareness of the Self only. The mind naturally, automatically, effortlessly must remain in that Being. 


Same Questioner:


So, Baba, in summary, the truth of our existence is revealed when we silence our mind, when there’s no thoughts there?

Shri Babaji:


Definitely. Because before that the mind is preoccupied in the awareness of its own imagination. One is aware of all the thoughts that are in the mind, and a world is built up there. And all the time because of the chatterbox habits, tendencies of the mind, mind is aware of the world that is in the mind. Mind is not aware of itself, it has forgotten. Nobody bothers what the mind is. In the mind everybody bothers – whatever is in the mind – but the mind itself they forget, they don’t get time at all to think. 


That is the greatness of the great sages of the ancient era, they bothered about that Self, “Who am I? Am I born with this body, am I going to become extinct when the body dies? Or am I going to exist in some other form, how can I come to know?” They also realized, “To know that truth we need to keenly observe.” Then they also realized, “If we have to observe, while observing through the mind, that mind needs to be clear, and pure, and quiet – only then it can observe.”
 

So, when you watch a beautiful scenario, you can watch it when your mind becomes dumbfound, becomes quiet. Otherwise, fifty percent of the mind is thinking itself, and another fifty percent trying to watch. That’s what happens; many times people try to chant the Divine’s prayers, stotrams, chants, mantras, like that. But more than fifty percent their mind is going around and roaming around, and thinking its own thoughts, other than Divinity’s form. Though whatever it’s thinking it is Divine, but it is imagining in a different form; from the mouth they are chanting the mantras. So, that’s what happens. 

So, one needs to clear the mind totally through sadhana. Meditation helps for that one. When you go on just watching, one day when you achieve the total silence, that is when the secret of the Self is revealed. You are there. In that consciousness of existence, you have to reach that one. For that you have to do sadhana. 


That’s what, first, every time we try to help everybody to practice meditation. First, meditate. Remain silent. Just watch. No mantras. No thinking is allowed. Nothing is allowed. No imagination is allowed. You must not think anything. Just you have to watch, then you become silent. And then, that is there, that consciousness of existence cannot be removed, it is always there. That’s how they decided, “This is an Eternal Existence.” 


Same Questioner:


So, Baba, you refer again to mind as consciousness. And so, I have learned to understand that just mind when it’s silent is pure consciousness, and pure consciousness when it moves is mind. 


Shri Babaji:


Exactly. Yes. 


Same Questioner:


So they’re the same thing in that way…


Shri Babaji: 


It is the same thing. The substance is the same thing. Simply it is thinking, it is spinning. And it is quiet. When it is quiet, it’s different. 


Same Questioner:


So, what’s unique though, is that we’re used to having one or the other, either active or silent, but I think, like Enlightenment or Self-Realization, you have both. You are aware of that stillness while the thoughts are also arising. 


Shri Babaji:


You see, that Awareness is there but as long as the body is alive. That’s what they tell, a Yogi is only a witness to this universe. That is all that is happening. There is no imagination about the world or universe in the consciousness of a Yogi. It is just a pure consciousness. Through the eyes it may get to see things, but it is just watching, it is not thinking anything about this. 


This comes in front of you [Baba holds up a thermos], just watching I’m not thinking what this is. That’s what I have told, holding a microphone – “Just watch this, don’t think whether it is microphone, whether it is black, whether it is yours, or mine, or who’s it is.” That’s why they said, ‘Ananta‘, boundless it is, boundless. And simply ‘That’ – ‘Tattva’, they call it as Tattva – means ‘That’. It was such an awesome thing when they came across that Truth! It is such an awesome, hair-raising effects, “Oh, Shri Rama,” Vasistha talks in Yoga Vasistha also. Such a beautiful thing. 


So that’s what needs to be. Otherwise, the mind, if it is spinning, if it is the mind, the world appears. It keeps thinking about the world. That is the magic. Saint Kabir Das tells, “The mind spinning and spinning, and spinning, and keeps roaming in the world. What a great magician you are. What have you done to this mind?” 


Same Questioner: 


Baba, so that thing of pure consciousness versus pure awareness, I’ve asked you about that a number of times, and it comes down to the thing that knowledge requires a mind, and maybe that requires a body; consciousness of anything seems to require a body or a mind. But awareness does not. Is that correct? Knowledge requires a mind, but awareness does not require a mind?

Shri Babaji:


Yeah, when just awareness is there, and even at that time if the body goes, gives way, then no need of any further bodies, because there is no spinning, and no imaginations, no wishes, no desires, nothing. 


Same Questioner:


It’s like if you’re completely immersed or one with the sun, you don’t need the rays anymore. 


Shri Babaji:


That’s all, like that. Sun doesn’t need another sun to give it a light. 


Same Questioner:


Right. So that pure awareness is really… it’s even beyond the field of all possibilities. It seems like consciousness is the field of all possibilities, everything that can be. But then that field is sitting within, you know, an infinite space, or infinite awareness. 


And I was thinking about the wheel and axle analogy that You’ve used a number of times. On the outside of the wheel everything’s happening really fast, and then as you go closer to the axle everything slows down. But even if you get down to the very center of the axle, one atom of the axle, even that is turning, but very, very slow. Now, that one atom has to be in a field, it has to exist somehow, and the space that it’s existing in is not turning.

So, I was wondering if that one atom that’s turning so slow, yet it does exist, it is kind of a manifest thing, but it’s still turning very slow, that would be like your consciousness of existence, and then beyond that, it’s just the field, it becomes the field, there is no motion at all. Do you have a comment on that?

Shri Babaji:


Yeah… 


Same Questioner:


You talked about this axle; I want to go further, what’s beyond the axle?

Shri Babaji:


You see, say we will take up… a beginner when tries and starts trying to meditate, it could be so awful. The world is moving inside the mind, it’s so fast, thought after thought, thought after thought, things building up, incidents building up. “Why this, and why not, and what happened,” the past and the future, this and that, everything, the whole world it is spinning. But as he, a person succeeds in just watching – that’s what repeatedly, every time we just ask, just watch, don’t do anything else – then slowly all that world slows down, that spinning. Because once the spinning of the mind slows down, when it is simply watching and not doing anything, then the world inside the mind slows down. Slowly, one by one, dissolves. As it slows down, when it comes to a stillness, then it cannot stay like that for a long time, it will disappear.

As long as it is moving, the thoughts are all getting generated and the mind is spinning, the world is there. Thoughts keep coming, thoughts keep coming. Once the mind also stops, the world also disappears. So, that is what happens. The matter disappears. Matter dissolves, that is in the mind. Slows down, slows down, slowly. 


Finally, one small atom – that ‘I’, ‘my Guru’ – as long as the body is alive, body has a mission, to talk to other things of the world. “This is what is happening, your mind is spinning. Slow down that mind. Your mind is spinning and the world is appearing, it is so fast and the world is happening, world is happening. It is simply fast, and fast, and fast, and it is giving you tension, unhappiness, fear, stress, everything. Slow down. You need to slow down. Mentally, you need to slow down. You stop, you stop, stop.” Then finally, when the body falls, gives way, then that atom also merges, disappears. 


Because no matter is solid, as the quantum of physics also talks, yesterday also Zen was also discussing with me, same in the Q&A, like the other day Victoria spoke to me about it, the same thing. So, it all dissolves, everything. So first, we have to take care whatever is in the mind; that needs to be dissolved, that needs to disappear. Once it disappears, then the mind becomes pure consciousness, it regains its awareness. Then it will not become a victim of its own spinning ever again. 


Same Questioner:


So, Baba, awareness and existence, are they synonymous? 


Shri Babaji:


They are same, synonymous. You are aware of the existence, then that awareness also stops. Then you don’t feel that you exist at all, so that means existence also disappears… but you are there, you are not going anywhere. Means, in your consciousness, you don’t keep thinking, “I am existing,” like, sun is not thinking, “I am the sun, I need the rays,” like that. There is no recognition needed. 


So that’s how, when a person is Self-Realized, doesn’t need any recognition from anybody. A hundred thousand people may tell, “He is not Self Realized anymore, He is not Self Realized,” that doesn’t matter, mind won’t spin anymore. Mind is not anxious that somebody needs to recognize me, somebody needs to certify me what I am. No need. 


See, the Divinity as a whole, as all-pervaded, Divine has never asked for anybody’s recognition. In your mind, thousands and millions of matter is there. You are not going to ask each and every one, “Please recognize me, I am existing, I am your Lord, I am the one who has created.” You won’t be asking anybody like that. You don’t need that one [Baba chuckles]. You know very well you have created all of them. Who thinks that they need to recognize you? Once you stop, they will all disappear. 


Same Questioner:


So, Baba, is it okay to consider consciousness as a field of all possibilities?

Shri Babaji:


Yes.


Same Questioner:


Potential for all things to be?

Shri Babaji:


Yes. That is the raw material. That is the screen. 


Same Questioner:


So, some people have said, every moment we have a chance to be aware of the Self, or identify, or else we can have identity with it being a body-mind. 


Shri Babaji:


Yes. In two ways, I will give the example. 


One is, within the mind, thought after thought coming, in between every thought there is a gap. So, every moment there is an opportunity for you to notice that gap, then become aware of that gap as the Ultimate Truth. That is the consciousness, pure consciousness.

And thought comes, then gap, then thought comes. So thus, you have the opportunity to become aware, but you are always attentive of the thoughts only, and you don’t notice that gap in between. 


In the same way, in this world when you see, you always notice only the matter, you seldom notice the space that is along with the matter; space is also there. Because the matter is in the space only, it cannot go out of the space. 


But, you see? Hundreds and millions of people who are born on this earth, they seldom notice this space. They notice matter. They try to study the matter. They catch hold of the matter. They want the matter for their happiness, everything they want, but they don’t see the space. 


There is an opportunity to see the Divinity, but we don’t try to see the Divine at all. We try to see only the world. 


Same Questioner:


Yeah, it’s interesting. What’s everywhere we don’t notice. 


Shri Babaji:


[Chuckling] We don’t notice at all. 


Same Questioner:


We’ll see the speck on the wall, but we won’t see the wall. 


Shri Babaji:


And we become interested in that and get involved. 


There’s a beautiful poet’s imagination in Mahabharata. Shri Krishna, the Divine, becomes a bit restless. His wife, Rukmini, asks, “Lord, why are you so restless?” 


“Draupadi is in trouble. She’s going to remember me and I have to immediately manifest before her the moment she remembers, because she loves me, she’s so devoted.” 


But that did not come to consciousness of Draupadi. First, she went to the grand sire Bhishma. Then Krishna sat back, relaxed, “Still the time has not yet come, she’s not remembering me, so I don’t have to manifest now. Let me sit down for some more time.” And then, when Bhishma refuses, he’s unable to protect. He tells, “I have taken an oath like this,” and they give reason. Then Krishna tells, “Now, Bhishma, Bhishma Pitamah has refused, now she will have to remember me. Now is the time I’ll have to manifest.” 


Yet, it did not come in Draupadi’s consciousness, and she went to Dhritarashtra. Like that, she went to Dronacharya, all grand sires, great people there, she went to appeal to her husbands, everyone. 


Finally when she saw, no matter, nobody there were ready to help her, protect her, then she gives up her sari which she was holding. “If at all anybody can protect, it is only Krishna, the Divine. Nobody else can protect.” The moment she thought of that, then Shri Krishna manifested in the form of cloths, He manifested as a cloth. It simply went on increasing, that amazing wonder happened. It went on increasing, manifested. 


So, that’s what we fail to notice, the Divinity; that is the moral value of it. It doesn’t come to our consciousness easily. Even if we are claimed that we are devotees, it won’t come to our mind. It takes time. That is the destiny, that’s how it works. And the practice; every moment, even in the midst of the night if somebody simply hits you, that remembrance of the Divine must come quickly. 


That is the watching the space, gap in between two thoughts.

Same Questioner:


Baba, I’d just like to make a comment, then there’s a couple of hands up. 


For people, when you think of being so detached that you might not be functional or interested in the world… and that may be true, You may not be attached to the world, but having been with You about twenty years, watching You operate, it’s pretty amazing. Because You’re really busy all the time, You’re doing so much all the time, but yet You never seem busy. I’ve never seen You unhappy, even like you’re injured, and it doesn’t seem to make any difference [questioner laughing]. Just everything happens effortlessly, without any stress. 


And so, you know, Self Realization is that side, You can have such a beautiful existence in the world, and You have hundreds of thousands of people that love You, and appreciate You, but at the same time You’re not trapped in the world either, You’re free. So, just an observation, it’s really beautiful. Amazes me, I don’t know how You do it.

[Baba and questioner both laugh]

Shri Babaji:



You are digging too much. Many things classified are information. I have to tell people, “I love you all.” If I don’t tell them anything, they will be upset. 

Same Questioner:


Well, we’re not going to just sit there quietly, Baba, we’re going to pummel you with questions.

Questioner:


I wanted to talk more about latent tendencies, acquired habits, and previous resolutions, because I hear you say those terms. So, can you just share about each one of those, what each one is? 

Shri Babaji:


Previous resolutions; so, that is what is building your present situation. Every moment that present situation keeps coming. Whatever you would have resolved. 


See, let us say, if present situation you have come to the height of that Divinity, that non-duality, quietening the mind. You have come to the height by practicing, practicing, listening, and answers, and listening, everything is happening, these are all the previous resolutions. Somewhere you would have struggled much more than what you are struggling now to make the mind quiet. So, by that practice, you have come to the present. So, whatever you are doing in the present, you are shaping a beautiful future for yourself. And very soon this mind will come to a halt. So, that’s what it is.

Same Questioner:

So, to go with what we’ve been talking about today, what You’ve been sharing, what we focus on, what we put our awareness on, what we observe – whether it’s the Self, and silence, and stillness, or something in the world, which, you know, we have to do our work, or shaping a better future, thinking positively – that’s what creates our future, that’s what creates the next now. Let me ask You, I’ve asked You this before, we are holding our current situation as is by holding our thoughts on it, is that correct?

Shri Babaji:


Exactly. Now, the important thing is, if the mind has an imagination that “I need to have such a future,” so then it will have to work out thinking about that future. But if the mind is becoming quiet, quiet, it is automatically shaping the future; the future is Self-Realization. So, that is what is one thing happening.

And in between for this, the present is big a challenge. Like you have to live in the world with this body. You would have adopted a way of life. You may need to do some business work. Now the challenge is, while doing all those business work, you need to think only a minimum. Your mind has such amazing capacity; you just need to think a little bit and then execute the business work, and then forget about it, forget about the result – in the mind. Then the mind becomes quiet. It would have done its work, but it’s not getting involved too much. 


It is not getting trapped, that’s what Agastya was telling. He said, “Baba, I have seen You keeping yourself so busy all the time, working on so many things, traveling and all the things, but I could see that you don’t get trapped into the world.” I listen to people’s problems. I give counseling to them. I pray for them. When people are in distress. They are scared, it is fearsome for them, stressful for them. I try to console them, give them some idea to hang onto, so that the mind can remain engaged. All these things doing, if I get involved I will become mad. Because I’m in touch with so many hundreds of people, mail, emails and WhatsApp, and social media, and other things coming. 

In the midst of that, people who accuse me also are there. They all play their own roles. Means this is all drama that happens. They come to me and then they refuse, they reject me and then accuse me, and then go away. So, these type of things also happens. People come to me with prayers, with their own distress. 


So, I am looking after a much, much, more bigger, hundreds and thousands of much more bigger business than what you are looking after for your livelihood. 


Thus, this is a challenge. You practice slowly. You think a little bit and do the thing, execute the thing, and then don’t worry about it; it will take its own shape. Once you would have done the work, result will automatically come on its own. Like that you have to practice. That’s what the meditation will teach you, so that you don’t get trapped eventually.  


So, that is the way you would shape your future in the best possible way. 


Same Questioner:


I understand what You’re saying about the silence and the gap, and focusing on that, and not thinking too much in business. But then there’s certain things in our lives, like maybe there’s a health issue, or maybe there’s a situation on the outside that you’re not happy with. And Agastya and I are always like, this is where we have the battle; he’ll say, “Just don’t think about it, just focus,” like what he said to You, “Focus on the Divine, the silence.” And then You said as long as there’s a future, meaning that you’re not at that higher state, you have to shape your future. So, I’m the one that is coming from more of mind modifications, like changing the thought, or trying to do efforts to maybe shift something. So is that… I’m a little confused there. 


Shri Babaji:


No, no. You are right, this what happens. But how to get rid of this can be a little bit tough job. Like health issue, or anything that is unhappy outside, are all things [that are] not easy as we talk. 


But I will tell what happened, like for me, recently my eye got affected, suddenly got involved into an illness. If the eye itself goes and doesn’t function, it would be very difficult for me to function. In this world also, to travel, so many things are there. I’ll have to become dependent on somebody. So, such things are there. So, sometimes such illness gets threatened. It threatens you, your health, or we may have to die, we may have to pass away. But then the mind remains quiet, at peace. If the Divine wants that this body has to go, that means whatever work this body had to do, it has done. That means Divine is telling, “So far whatever questions you have answered, whatever talks you have given, whatever awareness you have created about the Self, it’s all done, it’s time for you to leave this body. Enough.” Then you become peaceful. If that is to happen, let it happen. 


But in the meanwhile, we went to the doctor, we showed, got lectured by the doctor, “You have to take care like this, you have to do like this, you have to…,” and then, finally I agreed, “Okay, I will not travel for some time.” But after coming here, the habits start, you know we started doing Zoom, we started doing the Tuesday Raam Nam Sankeertans, that’s habitual, remembering God, like that one I keep doing. So that is how we keep doing. But I don’t worry anything about any of these things. 


There is somebody, like you and Agastya are there to help me to do this Zoom. So, Agastya, he comes, once that fortnight is coming, closely he comes back, “Baba, are you available?” Or he reminds, then I tell, “Yes, I am in.” Otherwise till then it doesn’t comes to my mind that I have to do the Zoom at all, but luckily he reminds. Zen reminds, “It is Zoom class, are you available, Baba?” “Oh, yeah, I am available.” And then it takes shape. 


Means, things are all happening, but without me having had to worry about anything. Getting involved too much into the thinking. Not to plan too much. It doesn’t have to. Somehow things are taking shape. That’s what I can see. Some higher consciousness seems to be shaping everything for me, whatever I have to do through this body. The same thing can happen to everybody, but it takes time. Only strong meditation can help you to notice this thing, until then this challenge will be there. 


Until then, you don’t worry, even if it comes to the mind, you think positively, “I have to do this business. I should not forget that I need to get Self-Realized also. I need to be devoted to Baba, I need to be devoted to my Guru. I have to take care of my husband, I have to take care of my family, my siblings.” Like that, in-and-out, in-and-out keep thinking both, both, and one day, you will rise above that. It will happen. Just now, don’t worry. You are right.


Questioner:


Namaste Babaji. I was getting these thoughts when You were earlier discussing about existence and consciousness. So, they say that knowing which there’s nothing else to be known, Atma Sakshatkara, once you have that, knowing which there’s nothing else to be known or desired for. But they also say that…


Shri Babaji:


Nothing. Once you are… Please go ahead…


Same Questioner:


I said they also said there is no birth again. Babaji has had Atma Sakshatkara, there is no birth for You. But how do they say that so emphatically, because we don’t know whether we will come back or not once we give up the body, and we don’t even know whether we are Realized. How would we know whether we are Realized?

Shri Babaji:


You see, when your mind is totally quiet, does not imagine anything, when that habit has come, that awareness has come, you’ll automatically know that you will be aware of that one. So, that awareness comes to you when your mind becomes quiet. As long as it is not quiet, that awareness will not come. You will be wondering, “How will we know, how will we know?” This is what happens. 


And when a person becomes Yogi, because there is no desire, actually. So, no desire is there. No more anything. You would have known that thing after knowing which there is no need to know anything else. That’s what Atma Sakshatkara means. That is the Highest. 


Same Questioner:


Does it mean that at the time of death, I have to turn my mind quiet, I should not be thinking of worldly things? 


Shri Babaji:


Yes. It has to remain quiet. At the time of – this is important – when death happens to the body, means the brain stops functioning, before that the mind must have achieved stillness, quietness. Before that, one must not imagine, “If I just take care that at the time of death if I become quiet, it will be alright.” It won’t happen like that. You must practice before, practice. That is what is sadhana, Tapas.  Self-Realization must happen. Then only at the time of the brain’s death, it will remain quiet. 


There’s no more desire. Whatever is happening, there is no desire that I have to be a Yogi and everybody has to do pranam to me. There is no desire that everybody has to recognize me as a Self-Realized Soul, and everybody has to worship me at all. No such idea is there, in the mind, in the consciousness. So, that has to come. 


Same Questioner:


There is a state of witness. Like, I can witness what is happening to me and my body. 


Shri Babaji:


Yes. 


Same Questioner:


But I’m not saying, “Oh, this is my body, what am I going to do?” But I realize, like when I had the stroke, mini-stroke a couple of months ago. I did not have any memory, but there was a consciousness in me that said something is happening, and people are not able to hear me, and I’m getting trapped in the body. And so I’m like, maybe there was some damage in the brain that was causing the loss of memory, but rest of the brain is okay so I’m still functioning.

But I feel that I had a touch with that inner witness, that was witnessing the event.

Shri Babaji:


That is a very good thing, advanced thing, probably due to your long time satsang and some sadhana, that thing has come. So, if you try to keep like that, quiet, as quiet as possible, then when actual death happens to the body, you will win. 


Same Questioner:


Okay. So, at the time of death it’s important to keep the mind quiet?

Shri Babaji:


Exactly. Yes.

Questioner:


Namaskar Babaji.


Hello. So how would Babaji explain the true meaning of dharma? And does this dharmic law exist? Is it a part of Brahman, or does it only exist within the imagination? Have we created it over time through the mind?

Shri Babaji:


You see, dharma means ‘your duty, obligation’. Even the ‘religion’ word also is taken from the Latin word for ‘obligation’. So, in Indian culture, it is known as dharma. Your obligation, that is what it is. 


So first, basically what you need to understand, you need to take care of your physical body, and then take care of the mind, then as long as the body is alive, take care of moral values, consideration to others. So, these are all the dharma. So, this is what is the important thing. 


So, when you achieve Self-Realization or the Brahman, as long as there has to be an imagination, you try to imagine the highest. Like, though this world also is the form of Divine only… just like everything that is in your mind is the form of your own mind. Your own mind is the raw material for production of all the thoughts and visions that are there in your mind, technically, scientifically. Without that mind, so much of thoughts, or visions, or stories wouldn’t have happened inside you. That means you are there, beyond those thoughts and visions. 


In the same way, this world. Beyond this world, there is a Supreme Consciousness, a Higher Consciousness is there. So that, when we talk in a name like the ‘Brahman‘, that name is imagination, but actual existence is beyond imagination, to tell a clue. Like ‘Parabrahman’ is the word used actually. Parabrahman means, it is beyond all imaginations – whatever you can imagine, it is beyond that – it is not that that you imagine. To tell that…


Same Questioner:


Boundless.

Shri Babaji:


Boundless. Exactly.


So that’s how, when you become totally quiet, you experience that Truth. Before that, you need to have a faith that there is a Higher Consciousness, then it will take you there. If you have the faith that this world only exists, it will trap you into this world only. But if you imagine there is a Divinity, it can take you to that Ultimate Truth.

Same Questioner:


Okay. So, it’s kind of almost like dharma has been a natural way for the mind to ensure its survival… I mean, for, I guess, existence to ensure its continuance?

Shri Babaji:


Yes, yes, somewhat like that.

Same Questioner:


Okay, alright, thank You, Baba, for clarifying.

Questioner:


Pranams Babaji. 


Yesterday there was a question about deep Tapas, and the answer that You mentioned, in deep samadhi there is no body consciousness. So, my question is, when You were in the five-year Tapas, You would get up after eight hours or so, so that you would be able to stretch and get some nourishment. So, the wake up in the deep samadhi, was it the same Supreme or Higher Consciousness that You referred to, the inner ‘I’? You didn’t need a special alarm to wake You up, it was the same Higher Consciousness that was prompting You to get up, take a break between the eight hours or so you were continuously in Tapas everyday?

Shri Babaji:


See, Swamiji had taught me to keep a glass of water before going into samadhi, and think once, “I need to drink this water.” That thought will bring you out of samadhi. He had taught that one. In other words, we can consider, if the body has a mission, if we had a mission, as an ordainment from the Divine, the Divine will bring you out of that samadhi. That’s how it will happen. 


Same Questioner:


I was thinking since Ambaji was also in attendance, so I thought she had set up an alarm clock, she would come and periodically wake you up.

Shri Babaji:


Ney, a simple alarm will not wake up, will not wake you up like that one. Only when you are into sleepy mode an alarm can be helpful, but in this the alarm will not be helpful. From inside only, some prick has to happen. 

Same Questioner:


Right, right. Thanks, Babaji. Pranams. 


Questioner:


Yes, it’s incredible to be with You again here today. I’ve had a lot of karmic and dharmic things coming up the last few months, but my question… I have to thank Agastya and Victoria for bringing up these points about, especially Victoria’s point about basically, vasanas and samskaras, and tendencies, habits. And I like what You said about in Mahabharata this Vastraharan where Krishna basically manufactured a miracle so that Draupadi’s vastra, her cloth, would be infinitely long. But then what happened? I mean, that was due to this really pressurized buildup, from Shakuni’s dice, and Yudhishthira’s bad gambling habit. All of these things forced that thing, and then that built up to something where there was this massive war. Or I was thinking of the instance where you have like, Hiranyakashipu, this very powerful, demonic force, and then this thing happened of this Narasimha avatar.

But, I just wondered – I’ve been thinking this for a long time, but I just wondered what You have to say – I mean, all of us have our own mini Mahabharatas going on within our own bodies and minds. And I just wondered whether, just the very force of creation means that all of this has to be built up and then there can be some kind of a moderating, or modifying, or nullifying force, and our own sadhanas, our own capacity to culture some quietness in our minds. But it just seems that it’s like it’s a whole adventure, a whole battle going on, no matter what how Awakened or Enlightened we may be, or may think we are.

I just wondered if you think that, you know, I mean, is this state of Realization, Enlightenment, Awakening, whatever we want to call it, Moksha, whatever it is, is this something that everybody has to work on all the time, no matter what they think about themselves, or do You think there’s a point that’s reached where you just don’t have to work on it anymore, where that miracle becomes automatically permanent? 


Shri Babaji:


Either way. See, when you are talking, “Do we have to work it out?” You don’t have to work for anything. When you stop working for anything, then automatically that is there. Or, you have to work for that also, that means you have to stop working. Just like, if you don’t press the accelerator, the vehicle is stopped. If you want to stop the vehicle when it is moving, you have to apply the brake. So, either way it is stopped. So like that it happens.

Means, important, it is interesting what you had been asking. If you can totally become quiet in the mind – you have no idea of any future at all, you don’t want any future, you’re not interested about any future, you have become quiet you don’t have any desire – then also it goes to Self-Realization. Then all future is stopped. That’s what sometimes I have told, a Yogi would have stopped the future. There is no future for me, because no desire. 


People may want to build up a beautiful future. To say that one, as long as you are interested in a future, try to build up a positive future for yourself. And once that interest also finishes, then you don’t have to do anything. That means you become quiet, then you are in the Self. So, that is how these things happen. When you are tired, when you become quiet, you are automatically there. 


That’s what you will realize as you go on struggling, struggling. One day you’ll realize, “My God, all that I have to do is I do not have to do anything.” When that realization occurs, then the Self-Realization becomes very easy. 



Same Questioner:


Yes, the Self Realization then becomes easy and there, but does that mean that there are not other kinds of samskaras or vasanas that continue to crop up from the past, or even from present actions, that we still have to deal with consciously, rather than just flow through the whole thing? I don’t know. 


Shri Babaji:


Ney, only when total Self-Realization happens… the brain has recorded all the things from childhood of this body that has been born, since then it would have recorded. That will induce a person into going to such habits; behavioural structure of a Yogi. Different Yogis may be behaving in different ways. So, if you have observed or read the stories, or seen some people like that one. Vasishtha calls that as a destiny, prarabdha. Because of the prarabdha, though Self-Realization happened, that means whatever this body depicts, I would not be getting involved into that. So, that gets reduced, vasanas all gets reduced totally. Very minimum, positive type of vasanas are kept so that the body is alive. 


Like, one incident comes in Ramakrishna Paramahamsa’s life. Sometimes He would be talking to his disciples in the room, and He used to make them sit for meditation, then He used to get up and come to the kitchen, nahabat khana, where Sharada Muni Devi would be cooking something. He would make like this [Baba mimics taking in aroma of food], “Oh, what a beautiful smell this is, come, what are you cooking?” Then she would be bewildered a little bit, “Thakur, what are you doing? Why do you come out like this to the kitchen? You show so much of interest in the cooking, and are interested. What will your students think about it?” He say, “This happens automatically, let it happen. Then I can keep this body for some more time due to this habit. That will be helpful to my students. They need to learn a little more, till then I will keep this body.” So that’s what happens.

So like that the prarabdha goes. But Ramakrishna Himself was not interested actually in any of the food item, or any of the smell, His consciousness was not getting trapped. That’s what as Agastya was also talking, a Self-Realized Yogi’s consciousness doesn’t get trapped into the world, but by habit, the maximum. So, we try to keep the habit like, I go to Temple that is in this Complex, I try to do some pouring water, abhishekam also. That thing, exercise, may not be needed for my consciousness because it is already quiet, it is into the Divinity. But yet, the prarabdha, that prarabdha will be inspiring to others, that needs to be. So, that is how things happen actually. 


So, once this body goes, it will die, finish. Because it is not building up any new prarabdhas; new habits or new tendencies are not being built-up. And the tendencies are over in the mind – it has become pure consciousness, so it will not induce the brain into going into such activation anymore. It will be a reduced one, it is getting withdrawn, and withdrawn, withdrawn. Just like Ramana Maharshi said, once you switch off the electricity for the electric fan, for some time it will go on, and then it will come to a halt. 


Same Questioner:


Yes, okay, thank You. I see other people have questions, but just a little tiny thing. Then we’re stuck with the conundrum that our final experiences are not happy ones objectively, because they’re filled with pain, and the body deteriorating, and disability, and all of that. But that seems to be what the fate is, I mean the slowing down of the fan. And the final result of all of our efforts, or all of our imaginations, is pain. And we got to deal with that somehow. 


Shri Babaji:


You see, you are right. The pain is for the body, for the physical things. But the inside consciousness doesn’t suffer anything. It is the mind which suffers. If the mind has become pure consciousness, there is no more suffering. But the body will undergo all such things. Say for us, anything, that all comes under the prarabdhas. Like some students might come to me. For some time they might stay with me. And if whatever they had imagined, if that doesn’t happen to them, they might accuse me and go away. So, like that, somebody trying to accuse this body, thinking me to be this personality, and even shout that this person is not Self-Realized anymore, all these things are all like prarabdha, painful things, what you are talking like this. But that is not painful actually for me. Because the consciousness is quiet, and it is not suffering anything. 


That is the reason why Jesus could talk when He was being crucified. When His body was going to go away, it was bleeding, and He was being crucified, He was being nailed to that cross. But He simply said, “They know not what they are doing. Forgive them.” His consciousness was quiet, at peace. It was one with the Divinity. 


Same Questioner:


Thank You.


Questioner:


Pranams, Babaji.

I just wanted to ask, hearing Your story of how early in Your life, You sort of had a pain seeing the vision of the world, and wanting to sort of remove that. And similarly, Buddha, you know, was living a life of, I believe a very comfortable life, and yet He just decided to leave, and give it all up. So, there’s something about almost a realization, that the world is not going to give what you’re really seeking. And I’m wondering what causes that to happen, is that because from previous lives the mind is becoming less attached to the world, or is it also sort of just a realization, and how does that happen?

Shri Babaji:


Yeah, it’s a sort of realization. Strongly that penetrates inner layers of the mind and it sits. Like, for example, you see, in the cemetery, let us say there is one person who manages the cemetery as a watchman, or guard, or somebody who will always be there. So, every day he gets to see so many dead bodies coming to the cemetery to be buried. He may not feel any detachment at all, because he would be worried of his own earnings. But for one prince, He saw a dead body, He saw a person of illness, He saw a person of old age. He became restless until He wanted to know the truth, what the truth is, why should we become old? And He became Buddha. Why should we die at all? He didn’t think about that before that, the moment He saw, that thought. So, this could have happened only due to previous lives, some sadhana, some understanding, the consciousness getting elevated to that level. 


Like, for this life, suppose whoever would come in contact with Yogis like us, when we repeatedly keep teaching, keep teaching, keep teaching. That effect of detachment may not occur in this life, not necessary. But if they go on listening, listening, listening, listening what the truth is, then somewhere it strikes in the next life. It can continue in a very early childhood. So, these type of things can come. 


Another example also, in the scientific world also, on so many people apple or anything would have fallen on the head. But one person thought “Why this apple should come down, why it didn’t go up?” He was Newton, that law is referred to as Newton’s law, in respect of Newton, Sir Isaac Newton, you know? That was his wisdom, and the geniusness. 


So, like this, all these great Self-Realized people were great geniuses. Whether it was Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, or Jesus, or Buddha, they were the great genius people. 


So, that will come to everyone. 

Same Questioner:


Thank You. 


Questioner:


How to work with Swamiji’s image? 


Shri Babaji:


How to work? 


Same Questioner:


Yeah, probably how can you use Swamiji’s image to raise your consciousness, to become closer to Divinity? 


Shri Babaji:


You need to have that total faith that that Swami’s image is actually Divinity. Don’t just try to think or see only image, try to see Swamiji Himself. Like that. Have that faith and devotion, total faith. And every time you show your devotion, you pray to Swami all the time, and know that Swami is always watching you. Like that, slowly your consciousness will rise above the ordinary corrupted level to higher plains. Then make it a habit that when you go away from that image also, you are unable to forget that image. Then your mind will be purified, it won’t think wrong things. 


So, like that you can always practice using Swami’s image also. Worship or sing in front of Swamiji, pray to Swamiji like that all the time. So, that will elevate your consciousness to a better, higher, purified level.

End of Session