0:00 Intro
0:15 Babaji talks about the meditation retreat in India
2:41 Can we function without thoughts? Is there much need for so much thinking?
5:03 Is ‘watching’ simply being aware without thinking?
6:23 How much thinking does Babaji do?
8:47 What does Babaji mean by ‘watching through the eyeballs’?
10:32 It seems the eyes see things in the physical world and the mind’s eye sees things in the mind
11:39 Once you realise your true Self, does that remain while you are having thoughts?
13:54 The state before the merger with the Self
15:15 Once the merger fully happens, is it permanent?
17:16 Is love what makes two things become one?
18:53 What is the difference between the watcher and the witness?
20:35 For there to be a ‘watcher’ does the ‘I’ have to be there?
24:07 As long as there is some residual ‘I am’ then is Self-Realization not yet complete?
26:28 Should we be listening out for answers to our problems in meditation?
29:42 “if you are not doing anything mentally, there is nothing you have to do to abide in the Self”
31:39 Difficulty in focusing the eyeballs in between the eyebrows
33:56 Is time the culprit to why we see the world as a reality?
38:55 Why does Babaji use the world ‘eternal’ with existence?
40:37 The playfulness of the Divine
42:10 If you just watch an object do we see the existence value?
43:26 If the objects which have emotional involvement creates impressions, should we just be a witness in order to live a life free of this karma?
46:50 If two people do the same action and one person feels a greater shame than the other person, is the karma the same in both cases or is it how much the mind reacts to the action?
48:21 On some level are all different things the same if we are not thinking?
51:33 Is it only through our imprints that we see the world around us?
52:43 Can we create good imprints to shape a better future and also go for the ultimate with silent meditation?
1:01:30 Is it ok to start meditation by praying to deities?
1:03:00 What approach should we have to forms of a deity?

Thoughts and the Consciousness of Existence | Thus Spake Babaji – online Q&A, No.132
Recorded on 12 February 2023 with US participants.

 Okay, Baba thank you. Thanks for being with us today. Baba, you had a retreat in India last week. Could you give us an elaboration on anyone particular point that was special during that retreat?

Babaji:  Yeah, the retreat was very nice. Everybody enjoyed seriously, all participated. As usual, some of my instructions – “Don’t talk to anybody. Don’t tell anybody to talk to you. Maintain silence as much as possible”. And I emphasized on the point, your effort should be to silence your mind. That’s what you are watching for. Don’t bother about any scenarios, any visions. An experience is only the peace. So, these type of things about Self, consciousness, all discussed, all questions came up very well. They all wanted to know. So, that was the main point was to silence the mind first. Forget about all visions and thoughts. If at all you need, just use it for focusing and do not bother. It should not be a matter of importance for you that you indulge in research work on such a vision. Just to be ignored. At the most you just focus. So, based on these points only, I taught them and we discussed and meditations were done. It’s all nice. About fifteen of them participated. Because of some short notice, everybody could not… some others could not plan and could not get flights, but some got a flight last moment. They came to know and they came. A few people from America were new and they were very happy. So, they wanted to get in touch with you and then help when Baba comes there for programs in what way they can. So, like that, it was nice.

Question: Great, great. So, that is the whole essence of the teaching. Somehow Baba, just discussing this, how the mind is just constantly generating our thoughts, imaginations, you call them. Ideas, concepts, images. And it’s just non-stop. And then we get identified, that consciousness gets identified with those thoughts and gets lost in those thoughts, unable to be aware of itself. But it’s hard to imagine how you can function without thoughts. You seem to indicate that there is not much need for a lot of thinking.

Babaji: Yeah, they are all coming out of simply habits, which is not necessary. To execute a job, at that moment, you can think a short while, then get into action, mechanical action of the physical body. Then your mind becomes quiet. Once the job is done, if it is used to, it settles down again. It won’t remain here with its flickering thoughts and visions. That ends. So, that’s what you can achieve through deeper meditations, one day in Tapas also. So, it will remain silent as a habit. So, it has the ability to imagine. So, you can think. So, that is what happens, that’s what the achievement is. But you won’t get carried away. It won’t be there all the time thinking and visualizing things, which are not necessary. Means, which are not necessary for your Peace and Happiness, that’s what you’re looking for. Without that also, you can have Peace. So, once you understand, you become quiet.

Question: Yes, it is true Baba, probably if we monitor our thoughts, there is probably one in a hundred that is necessary.

Babaji: Definitely, very true.

Question: So, watching is simply being aware without thinking.

Babaji: Yeah, that’s what eventually you achieve. That’s what has to happen. That’s why watching is said, if you are watching, gradually your thinking all decreases and disappears. As if you never had any thought at all and then you are there. So then, your attention turns to Yourself. So, by that you become aware of your Real Self. Also, simultaneously you get Supreme Peace all the time and all the   chatterbox things all stops, and you enjoy it.

Question: So, the meditation is basically holding the mind still, and you say that if we can just hold the mind still, eventually it stops. It gives up. It stops thinking and then you become aware of the watcher.

Babaji: Yes, yes. That’s what happens. And it just remains quiet, at peace. Means when it is quiet, it is at peace.

Question: So Baba, how much thinking do you do? Do you imagine or do you think, or does it just all happen spontaneously?

Babaji: Yeah, when a question is asked, answer comes spontaneously. I don’t have to imagine, “What should I answer now? How should I frame this answer?” Such things doesn’t happen. Perhaps by like a twenty-three years, after my Tapas I’ve been travelling, and answering the questions, that has enabled me to answer spontaneously, not have to think. That’s why even in the beginning days and afterwards also I have always told to live in this world, you need only a little bit of mental energy, like you were telling, one in a hundred. One thought is enough, but you get involved into hundreds of thoughts. You just need ten dollars to live, have a meal and you are going to spend ten thousand dollars. So, all the nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine is waste unnecessarily. So, just to live in this world you need ten dollars, that’s enough, like that. So, to behave in this world, to teach, or communicating in this world you need only one percent of the mental energy, the rest  can simply rest. Thus your load on the brain also decreases. Like these things, a little bit of hiccups were about to start, hand went on to the water thermos and it sipped some water. This was a mechanical action. There was no thinking, I didn’t think, oh now I have hiccups, I need to have a water and then I go for the water. So much of reactions doesn’t happen. Spontaneously simply we lift, take some water and keep it back. For all these things, all this time mind is quiet, at Peace.

Question: Beautiful. So, Baba, you have a term about the eyeballs, watching through the eyes or the eyeballs. Does that just mean seeing with the eyes?

Babaji: Initially in the beginning, you use the eyeballs because they are strongest of all the sensory organs. Like for example, if I tell a story or the same story I picturize or dramatize and show it as a movie, that picture might enter and sit in the consciousness very strongly. More than listening to a talk or a story from the mouth of another person. So, that is the strong. So, if you fix the eyeballs, then it can withhold the mind. Gradually, eventually, the eyeballs simply remain there, but the consciousness or the mind has thoughts and visions decrease, decrease and come to an end, It gets withdrawn, introverted. It doesn’t need the eyeballs anymore to look outside, because it is no more looking outside. As it is becoming quiet, it will look outside only when it imagines. The imagination stops, it looks introverted inside. Inside it will find only itself. So, that’s how it finds itself. The Self. This happens when the mind becomes quiet. So, that is what you have to achieve.

Question: So, Baba, it seems like the eyes are like cameras, the eyeballs, and they are for seeing things in the physical world. But then there is the mind’s eye which sees things in the mind.

Babaji: Exactly. Mind, as I told before also, mind is made up of consciousness and energy. Consciousness enables you to become aware of that thing, wherever you are able to apply that consciousness. Now, it needs to be applied to itself. As long as it is into imaginations, preoccupied, busy with thoughts and visions, it is unable to pay that attention or become aware of itself. So, that is why we have to stop the thoughts and visions and just achieve the silence. The mind becomes quiet, then its attention goes to itself or turns to itself automatically. So, then you become aware of yourself.

Question:  And once the Self is discovered like that, once you go back and you realize what you really are, as the consciousness of existence, that remains, that can remain while you are having thoughts. Then the thoughts never overshadow that again.

Babaji: Yes. And just before the merger, as the merger keeps happening, still practically a little bit of separation is there. So, that’s when this separated droplet is able to experience the infinite form of the ultimate truth. Once it merges, there is neither matter nor space, like that, it all ends. But just before that, it experiences. So, “Oh, that is the awesome. This is what the ‘I’ is, from where the ‘I’ is coming. Amazing what this could be.” That question can arise because you cannot make out what it is. It is zero, it is absolute, is there something or is there nothing? Is this is what the ‘I’ is? That type of thing arise before the actual Samadhi occurs. So, that is when you can make out and through this point only you are able to teach this point, give a clue to the student. But once merger happens after that, there is nothing that you can give a clue. Simply that you being quiet itself is the clue to the student – “You also become quiet”.

Question: And that state’s beyond the mind. So, the mind can’t really understand that state.

Babaji: Yeah, you don’t have anything to experience because it is You. You are the separate entity, you are able to experience another separate entity. So, that is the amazing thing with one Self that happens as if it is two.

Question: So Baba, that state just before the merger, that’s that kind of the ‘I am’ state I call that, that’s that where you feel “I am infinite”, or “I am the light” or “I am the bliss”, like that?

Babaji: Yeah, something like that you are able to make out when that duality is still there before the merger. So, that’s when you can make out because if you have heard any of such words of this world, then you can tell “Oh, this is infinite”. Infinite is a word belonging to this world’s communication, or it is just like space, just nothing. But yet the consciousness is arising of ‘I’, it is coming from there and “I am here”. So, that’s when you realize the ‘I’ was a part of that supreme ‘I’ only, not a different entity. It had simply become like a droplet by an illusion only, it realizes. All this can be made out only before merger.  The merger, everything stops.

Question: And once that merger.. you have said that that merger fully happens only one time and then it is permanent. Is that correct?

Babaji: Yes.

Question: Before that you’re getting your toes in it, you are experiencing most of it, but once it fully happens, it’s done.

Babaji: Yeah, definitely. So I am able to answer only… that time whatever experience had happened, I think that is coming out spontaneously unknown to me. Probably that’s what I expect it to happen in that way. So, that’s why as long as this body is alive, only I will be able to teach. Once the body goes, total merger is there simply, no more rebirth, so nothing can be taught after that. Somebody need to have a faith and a devotion – simply they receive inspiration if that is there. For that’s what we keep trying to teach, when this body is available have faith and devotion – that will take care of you, that will teach you everything. You get everything there. So, that’s what you have to achieve. You achieve silence, you achieve silence. Repeatedly we have one mantra, you achieve the silence, just watch.

 Question: Lost my words. It will come back.

 Babaji: Yeah, you have to take a long breath and imagine some question to come back, otherwise you are dumbfound, it is done.

Question: So, Baba, ‘love’. Would you talk a little bit about love in that sense? You know, love seems to be what makes two things feel like one.

Babaji: Very true. Yeah, that’s what the real love is. You see yourself in the other also, so that is oneness, like parents would see themselves in their children, type. So, that type of thing happens. You have chosen one as your master and you see yourself in the master, and then there is no separation. When that is there, everything becomes acceptable. The master pulls you up, he tests you, he teaches you. Everywhere he teaches you, even if he is scolding you, he is teaching you actually, actually he is not scolding you, he is teaching. When a discipline is being taught, for a third person it might appear as if the master is scolding, but actually master is teaching. He is not scolding.

Question: Some people can’t learn well that way though Baba.

Babaji: Yeah, yes, very true.

Question: Okay, Baba, what is the difference between the watcher and the witness?

Babaji: When you watch, you are not getting involved with the sight that you are watching. So, thus eventually mind becomes totally quiet and purified as consciousness. And afterwards also as long as the body is there, through the eyes it gets to watch. Like the universe, this world, or the body, surroundings. It gets to watch. But in all those times it doesn’t get involved with any thought. Either of a ‘me’ or anywhere of ‘mine’, whether this is good or bad, judgments doesn’t happen. Dualities are all lost. Only oneness is there, no duality is there. Neither happiness nor unhappiness, they both lose its significance. It cannot have any effect on your consciousness. Your consciousness has become aware. If I am quiet, I am at peace. So, it remains at peace. So, thus it is only a witness to whatever is happening.

Question: So, that’s that back to the initial question today that watching is being aware without thinking.

Babaji: Yes.

Question: So, that is what you really are. You are that awareness.

Babaji: Exactly, yes.

Question: And for the watcher, does the ‘I’ have to be there? Does there have to be some ego for there to be a watcher? Would that be a little bit grosser state?

Babaji: Once a total merger happens, a Self-Realization happens, then that will not be there. Because the ‘I’ has vanished, and ‘I am watching’ also will not be there. If I am watching, that means I am into some action. I am getting involved. The watching might be happening. It’s visible. The front thing or the universe world, everything visible, but I am not even watching. I am just watching the Self. I’m in the Self.  Remember the story of Shukha Maharishi and the King Janaka? When Shukha Maharishi went to him and wanted to know; “I had been in celibacy since my birth, and I don’t have anything else to do in this world, so, I am able to keep my attention on to the Self all the time. How come that you are also able to keep? You are a householder, you are a king, you have to do politics”. So, then the king says, “I have some court job. Before I finish, I would like you to go around my town and have a look”. So, he places a candle on the head telling, “Please take care that this candle doesn’t fall down”. He comes back in the evening, says, “How was my town?” He says “Only the eyes were seeing, but I did not watch anything, because my attention was on the candle that it should not fall down all the time I was away, that the candle is there, candle is there”. Then Janaka says, “Exactly like this. Here instead of candle, the Self is there. The awareness is abided by the Self in the Self all the time.  Though the eyes are watching, actually I am not watching anything, thus I am not doing anything at all in this world.”

Question: So, the watcher disappears in Self-Realization. There’s just the witness?

Babaji: Exactly. For others, it might appear as if I am watching, but actually I am not watching anything. If I had been watching, then the next definition comes. “What is it that I am watching? Is it mine? Is it not mine? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? This person is good? This person is bad?” It’s all over.

Question: I was just thinking of in the early days, you used to talk about people where the ‘I’ was still there, and you used to refer to them  as ‘half-baked beans’.

Babaji: Yeah, no offense to anybody. (laughs) Afterwards only I learnt; “My talks are only for educational purpose, not directed against any individual or group of individuals”. This became very famous among my students, people who know me – a disclaimer.

Question: Well, that disclaimer, it’s an important point, Baba, because basically what you were saying was, as long as there is some vestige, residual of that ‘I am’, that you are not done yet. And a lot of people would say that they think they have obtained the ultimate or the highest truth. And you’re just saying that not until that ‘I’ dissolves back into the Self.

Babaji: In fact, as you were asking about the retreat, this was another important question that they all asked. “Nowadays somebody suddenly tells I was sitting on a hillock and just like that I became enlightened. Does it happen like that?” I said no, in my opinion, no, not like that. You had to put an effort to make it quiet. You have lost $9,999. It won’t simply come like this. You need to put an effort to earn all the dollars and make it $10,000″. So the mind has gone out of control. And they prove to be only spiritual leaders gathering 50,000 people and doing all sorts of actions to entertain them. Like stories, colourful talks about this world, about this and that, everything. And they try to attract, they bring big political leaders to attract others. Like these type of things only they will be doing. Nobody will ask you to sit for one hour meditation. At the most, they will make you to sit for ten minutes of meditation, and then done. You are indulged in other activities, picnics and other type of things. They will take you around to pilgrimage, they will take you around. They will try to keep you engaged with them, but not ask them to do this Sadhana. Whereas a Yogi will not bind you as a client, as a guardian, He won’t be taking care, taking you everywhere. He will just ask you to take care of yourself. That’s it.

Question: That’s a big job. That’s a full-time job.

Question: Thank you Baba. Blessings and pranams. How are you? It’s so good to see you. Question – I have read that when we pray or we’re connecting, we’re asking God for something or source or whatever we call it, and then, when we’re meditating, it’s our time to listen. So my question to you is, I tend to get incredible miraculous answers when I sit in meditation for problems that are, you know, causing me to think in the real world. So my question to you is, first of all, I might make an impression because it’s a great solution, so I don’t want to forget it. So that would be one thing I want to know about. And then the second thing is, where does that inspiration come from? Like you said, you just know, it just comes. Where does that come from? And then my third question is, should I have a different meditation? Should I have two meditations, one where I will listen and then one that I do with you? I’m just curious.

Babaji: Now pay attention. If your aim is for Self-Realization, final Happiness, Supreme Consciousness, then do not get involved with any of these inspirations. It is coming from the source, from the same source, which has created a problem. It is the same thing which has created a problem and a solution is also coming, just like the director has created a villain and he will create a hero also. So just allow it to happen automatically, but you don’t get involved. Neither you have any problem, nor do you have to sort out any problem. You have to become quiet mentally, because that is being tested, tempted that you get carried away. Your attention is drawn to this problem and the problem getting solved. So they both are illusions which are created. So it will happen on its own, which you don’t have to bother, means, in other words, in the life, just take the things as it happens. Acceptance. So you don’t start thinking, “I have a problem now, I need a solution.” And something comes, “Oh, this is miraculous, amazing.” Don’t get excited. Don’t get any worried, problematic. This is an advice. More as a Guru than like a father. So that’s what the advice is. Then you  learn to silence yourself, keep quiet and you are getting connected to that source. That means instead of getting some chocolate from that source, you are realizing that you are that source. Then you don’t need any chocolate at all.

Right. Okay. Thank you, Baba.

Question: Namaste, Pranams Baba. I had a question about one of your posts from the ‘His Master’s Grace’ series. And I thought it ties in really well with what you and Agastya have been talking about today. I’ll read it to you. It says, “If you are not doing anything else mentally, then there is nothing else you have to do to abide in the Self.” And when I hear that, it doesn’t sound complicated. It just sounds like I just should not do anything mentally. But I think for all of us, it seems to be, and I just wanted to get your thoughts on why it seems so complicated for us.

Babaji: You see, when you read it as a theory, it appears very simple. All that I have to do is I just become quiet. I just remain quiet. Then I am already there. But when you see your consciousness, it is not quiet. Sometimes when we have an illness, long ago when the diabetic was detected, Doctor said, “Oh, I took it very simple.” “Oh, that simple. I will control. I won’t have anything.” But things were not as easy as we had thought. Because mind has acquired habits.  It has become habitual not to remain quiet. So your effort has to go on to remain quiet. Then you are there. Once you have become really quiet, at all times, then there is nothing else for you to achieve. That is what you have to achieve. That’s why it appears simple, but it is complicated. We have made it complicated.

Thank you, Baba.

Question: The question today is, I have a stigmatism. And I had different degrees of the stigmatism in each eye. In the beginning, was very hard for me to be able to concentrate or try to focus my eye, both on my third eye. Because one kind of felt like it was hurting me. Now, two things. One is that I have got my eye checked and I have the same degree of stigmatism on both eyes. That I spent my whole life having different amounts. Second thing is that I begin to kind of send my eyeballs to my third eye or to the area of my third eye. And now I am in doubt where I am actually having my eyeballs in the third eye. So, is it normal, Baba? Is what I am feeling the right thing?

Babaji: Yes, this happens in meditation. So, you don’t have to bother about location. Anything that is visible when you close the eyes, you try to be more gentle. Relax. Take long inhale and exhale. That’s why I try to tell, “Gently close your eyes”. Then it remains composed. It composes the mind also. So, then this thing will be taken care. It will go away on its own. You will feel the peace and just existence. That’s what you have to experience. Otherwise, it can spin or it can give some hard times and some headaches or any such thing can happen. So, that’s why you have to take care of that and then it will be alright. It happens. It happening is normal. It is not such a thing. But if you just take care of this simple thing, just relax. Don’t be in a rush. Don’t get agitated also. Then it is taken care. It will be alright.

 Thank you, Baba.

Question: PranamsBabaji. So in understanding Baba’s teaching that something that is come into existence and goes out of existence has no truth in it and it has no existence value in it, because it is temporary. And it occurred to me that how can this happen. It seems in my thinking, please correct me if I’m right or wrong, it seems like time is the culprit. The imagination or the illusion or the notion of time, when we apply it to an object or a character, believing it to come into existence or going out of existence – that’s the problem and if we can lose the notion of an object or character coming into existence or going out of existence, all those objects or characters can regain their existence value without bothering whether the object is an unmanifest potency of the mind or whether it is manifest. Not even bothering one way or the other. That they, the object, any character can be seen in the same light as the Conscious awareness of eternal existence, all pervaded. So now we have objects, they can be there. They cannot be there.  We have full space, we have an empty space, no matter. It is neither full nor empty. Is this the truth? The space is neither full nor empty at any period?

Babaji:  Yeah, you see, the way you imagine, things would appear depending on your attitude. For many people it could be simple. A stone, and on the stone a figure of Hanuman is sculpted. But when that stone is installed, with invocation to the divinity that is all pervaded as an infinite one single Self that exists, it is invoked to remain manifested in that stone sculpting also, “Let this stone on the sculpting disappear, and only you are visible. Give us so much of devotion”. Like that the mantras are all chanted and prayed when installation happens. So see, for many others it could be simply a stone. For many others it could be a sculpting on the stone. For those who have faith and devotion, it is divinity who is there. Nobody knows what the truth is. Those people will have to have faith. It is the divine Hanuman who is there. But nobody knows how Hanuman will be now when the physical body is gone. And if he has to manifest, how it is. Yet they develop such faith, such belief. So based on this only, the world either appears as a true existence sense or just appears as an appearance. But if you scrutinize in reality, the entire world including our own physical body, even if it is a big mountain, it has its own end one day. The world will have its end one day. It may be tomorrow or it may be billions of years later, but it will have impermanence. So because of this impermanence, we will realize it has only appearance value. It has appeared, but it doesn’t have existence value. So that’s how, depending on your wisdom application. Here, you are not simply believing, you are applying a wisdom to think the real and unreal. So that’s how the things of experience it tells whether it has appearance value or existence value. This you experience in deeper Samadhi about the Self as the existence value, when throughout the meditation and Tapas it doesn’t disappear. The ‘I’ doesn’t disappear, simply the ‘I’ imagination disappears, but that thing is there always. So that is how you experience the truth. What you are telling is the right thing, I try to simplify the same example.

Question: When Baba says conscious awareness of eternal existence, just by saying eternal it seems like it’s even when we associate awareness of eternal existence with pure consciousness, or with the Self or the all pervaded space, it seems like we are using little trickery, because eternal takes the positive benefit of the concept of time and abandons all the burdens which is obsession and identifying with objects and so on. But it is interesting to me, maybe Baba can explain why we say eternal existence rather than just existence.

Babaji: You see, in this world if we talk of eternal word, then people might get some clue that it is always there. If I simply tell you it exists, then everybody cannot understand, that it is an eternal existence, means it is always going to exist like that only, it is not going to change. There is no appearance, that’s why there is no disappearance also. Like the space, the ultimate truth has no appearance for the eyes  – it appears as if nothing. So that’s why there cannot be any disappearance also. So that is why it is eternal, it will be like that only. It is neither something nor nothing. You think of something it appears so, you think of nothing it appears so, but you keep quiet, it also keeps quiet.

Question: But the playfulness of the divinity gives rise to an imagination of a world appearance, and why is that? And the spark of eternal conscious awareness existence if you will, it comes out and loses awareness of itself.

Babaji: See, you answered in your question – you said the playfulness of the divine makes it appear. That is all, that is the answer; playfulness of the divine. That’s it. So then if the divine is quiet, everything is quiet.

Question: So both playfulness and quiet can coexist, no problem.

Babaji: Yeah, that’s what is the theory of Lord Shiva dancing, Shiva Thandav. That is the concept that has been explained. When your mind becomes active, it dances, it becomes playful, then it creates. When it gets troubled by its own imagination, then it wants to get rid of that. Because the moment it imagines, it comes out of the absolute. Absolute remains intact always.

Question: But going back to my original question, it seems that an object or a character, as long as it’s not identified as the ultimate truth, it can have some existence value as long as it’s just observed, rather than putting belief into it.

Babaji: Yeah, you just watch, you don’t try to think what it is, because you will end up imagining. That’s why remember I have told, in the entire universe, in whichever subject, all terminologies are used to explain but nothing is really conclusive. Whatever they imagine the things appear like that and that type of terminologies have come into existence. One might like to call it as the divinity depending on the culture, cultural background or the language that prevails. For the same thing, another might simply like to call absolute. Both are equally same, so it’s beyond all attributions. That’s what it is said that’s why. Got it?

 Same questioner: Got it. Thank you.

Question: Pranams Babaji. In our day to day living we see so many things which are purely observational, such as we may watch a tree or a bird or a wall and these types of observations what we see would not have an emotional aspect. They’re purely observational. But those observations are things that there is an emotional involvement such as any turbulence or agitation. So are those the ones that stick and form impression, and to live a life free of those types of Karma, we just have to be like a witness?

Babaji: In whichever way you have made a judgment, that will get absorbed in that way only. See, as you are talking a tree or a bird, they may not create emotions much. That is what is your impression, your imagination and thus you have judged. So that impression will remain only as a tree, not troubling you in any happiness or unhappiness. But still it will sit in your consciousness and a turbulence and a tsunami or an earthquake, that might create a lot of emotions. So that goes much deeper – all such things will sit as that only always. That is why when you sit for meditation, hundreds and millions of thought come, not all thoughts may not be like in one type of thing. Some might be happy, some might be unhappy, some might be deep wounded, some might be much more deeper sadness. So all these things would make you to wonder when did I do all these things? So, finally in whichever way, the amount of the depth that you absorb, it will remain in that way. So in devotional path, that was the highest psychology taught by Sages. So instead of tree, instead of turbulence, instead of earthquake, instead of pain, instead of suffering, you just imagine just the God, just Divinity. So you will get to see divinity everywhere, and that will make your mind more quiet. This is the technique, devotional technique through which you imagine simply the peace and nothing else, then your mind will also settle down peacefully. If it imagines turbulence, the turbulence is in your mind. If you imagine the earthquake, the earthquake that is in your mind will be the troublesome, much more. Though you might be staying thousands of kilometres from the place where an earthquake has happened, but still your mind will start suffering so much unnecessarily. So if you are intact, if you are healthy, you might be able to go and help those people who are really suffering. So that’s what we try to teach.

Same questioner: Pranams Babaji.

Question: Thank you so much Baba. Just that Arun’s question actually reminded me of another question I’ve had, very related. So it’s sort of what you’re just talking about but with Karma. I’ve always thought like it due to different attitudes of different people, two people could do the same action, maybe a wrong action for example, and one person may, it seems due to attitudes, one person may judge that or feel a greater shame for example, than another person. So is the Karma sort of the same in both cases or is it just purely how much the mind reacts to the action?

Babaji: It depends on how much the mind reacts, and takes things so seriously, and absorbs as an imprint. So that’s how the Karma is absorbed. That’s what would be troublesome. That’s what one needs to get rid of. Even now also, instead of holding that you are being troubled with so many things, just think there is nothing. Then the mind will subside. You’ll feel better and peaceful. Once the mind is regained, it can take care of much of the physical troubles things also.

Question: Yes, thank you Baba. We talk about appearances. So we look at one person might be very angry and another person might be very loving. And you see like some terrible things smells awful, and something else smells beautiful, and they appear to be different. So there’s Baba who’s a Saint, and then there’s someone else who is a murderer. If we’re not thinking, are all these things the same on some level, are they just really… We talk about non-duality; is everything actually the same?

Babaji: If the mind is quiet, it is pure Consciousness.  Then such a person would not be selfish, narrow-minded and harm the other unnecessarily. Even like a Yogi, when he has achieved total quietness of the Consciousness, even if he scolds somebody, he’ll be doing a benefit to that person so that he doesn’t get any Karmas. So, such is the purity of mind. If the purity of Consciousness is there, such a persons would not indulge in robberies or in murdering or any such thing, he won’t be able to think. The thinking only induces you into an action – that is important. If the thinking itself doesn’t arise, such a person cannot go into such an action at all. So this thinking is very important first. If no thinking is there, all are equally pure. There is no such question as a Saint, a robber, or King, or whoever it is, there is no such thing.

Question: OK, so I think I understand. My real question is, with the obvious is you sit, and you’re quiet and you watch. But the question is how does someone get to that place where they’re actually able to experience that there is not this difference?

Babaji: By meditating, in that the meditation means you’re not trying to do anything, you’re just trying to remain quiet. You’re practicing to regain that quietness, then you get all those things. You would have reached that stage, then you get the understanding.

Question: So do we try then to not see things as different or do we just meditate and eventually that experience happens?

Babaji: Yes. Eventually that experience happens. When you become quiet and become aware of your Real Self.

Question: Baba, if you don’t mind, I’d like to interject a question really quickly about what we’re talking about. So recently, I read this book where they were talking about the Buddhists say everything is empty. And it’s only through our imprints that we see the world. And I never really got that before. And it was like this, “Oh my goodness”, it’s exactly what you’re talking about right now. So what they’re saying is, from our imprints, we actually create the world.

Babaji: Exactly. So finally, when we go for Self-Realization, that emptiness also disappears. It is neither something nor nothing. That’s what we keep telling. Because emptiness comes in this world as a void. I repeatedly keep telling it is neither void nor full. Depending on your attitude, it appears as a full or it can appear as a void, nothing, emptiness.

Question: So, but what they’re saying, and I am so grateful for the highest pitch of truth that you’re sharing, but we’re still in the world. And so I’m going to formulate this question. What they share is, at least see the bad imprints that you have, and create good imprints of giving, of concentration. They talk about concentration, they talk about integrity. And then that will shape your world. You’ll start experiencing the manifest in a different way. I do see the benefit, how you’ve shared you have positive thoughts to shape a better reality. So, as we’re living in our world, and I think Alex and maybe Ryan and Arun, I think we’re all kind of circling around the same question. You know, we see the bad imprints or imaginations, at least we replace them with good ones. And we start seeing the world differently. So can we do that, and also hold true with meditation and silence and go for the ultimate? That can coexist, right?

 Babaji: Yeah, it can coexist. Like some of the examples I will give, I’ve been talking in my talks several years. One is, see, where I’m staying in the Ashram of my Guru, that was attacked and troubled. We had to defend. One each other became opponents. In that, if you take a neutral stand, who is good, who is bad? That is another thing. But by action, one was definitely bad. Bad was, he first attacked the other. He wanted to usurp other’s land. But we defended. We could not have kept quiet. We had to defend our Ashram’s land, because that was an institute for public utility. While doing so, I needed to take care of my mind, that the mind itself does not become corrupted. I should not lose my Self awareness, my Self Realized thing. So, in personality, there was no hatred, there was no dislike. Simply we are defending a larger cause, so that people can come and sit peacefully, meditate and learn spiritual truths. That’s why we were trying to be faithful to our Guru. So, all action was going on, but mentally I was not absorbing anything. The same thing is explained in the six enemies of human mind, like extreme greed, extreme anger, all these things that I have explained.

While being in this world, try to take care of your mind, does not become victim of any one of these. Then, that can corrupt the mind, that can be disastrous to your mind. When your mind troubles, means you as the consciousness will get troubled. So, in all the episodes of defending our ashram in Dehradun, I was never troubled. I knew I am just doing the duty. I have nothing against the other person. We were very good friends. We admired him. But simply because he attacked the institute, so we had to defend the institute. So, that was all we were doing all the time. So, thus the mind remains uncorrupted, purified state. That’s what Buddhism thinks – if the mind can remain empty. Sometimes, I try to reach this point. I have asked people, as long as there is something, there is a risk of a problem occurring to that something. If that is just nothing, if nothing exists, there is no question of any trouble, any problem ever arising at all. Think  this point, if you want I will repeat. If there is something, there is always a risk problem. Somebody might snatch this, or somebody may drop this, and this can break. Now, I don’t have anything at all in my hand. So, there is no risk of somebody snatching from my hand, there is no risk of somebody breaking that from my hand. In the same way, when you reach the top of Self-Realization, you go to that level where it is neither something nor nothing. Just for sake of teaching, Buddha would have used emptiness. Even if it is emptiness, also I am happy. If I do not exist at all, also no problem. I am very happy because I have realized, if I exist only problems occur to me, if I am not there, there is no problem at all. So, this is the highest truth, even if that is the thing. However, if want to see that we need to exist, if that is the insecurity, then we realize in this, when you Self-Realize, you exist, but you don’t need anything for your existence, that emptiness. So, all these are the emptiness. Simply, we fill when we imagine either of a good or a bad.

So, that also in this world, as you told, you are all in this world, you need something. You cannot simply imagine of that level. For that only we tell, if you are more positive in your thinking, you can be shaping a better positive destiny for yourself. If you are negative, you can be shaping a negative destiny for yourself. You are your best friend, you can become your worst enemy, beware. So, simply that is what you have to do in this world. As long as you need to think, think of good things. You think about me as your father, you will feel very pleasurable thought. You think that “Oh, this old man is an enemy of me”. So, then you will be troubled. I have nothing to gain or lose.

Question: Well, as we become quiet, there definitely is a more trust that whatever is coming. I see, I see it coming from the Divine Consciousness, and I trust, and I move forward and just respond. So, is this Divine Consciousness, Universal Consciousness, is this the one single Self?

Babaji: Yeah, exactly. What the Buddhism talking of ‘empty’ is that one single Self, one-ness that exists. When simply one is there, there is no action, no reaction, no emptiness, nothing. It appears to be just nothing.

Question: So, you said something today that I never heard before, and I just want to make sure I heard it right. You talked about, and this is what I wanted you to talk about today. I wanted you to share the experience when the individual self merges with the universal Self. And I believe that you actually shared about the awesomeness and the wonder. And that happened before your merger. But then you said that now you share it… you never go back there. So, as the one with the absolute, you don’t go back into Universal Consciousness. We’re all trying to get to that place of Universal Consciousness. Is that correct?

Babaji: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, that’s why I try to give a clue if an interested person is there to know. And then I also advise not to remain with that clue too long. Plan to merge, become quiet. Give it up also.

Question: So, one more question. You know, like you’ve talked about people think of Shiva. And I used to think of Shiva or Hanuman. For a while now, I’ve been just referring to the universal father or the divine mother as that symbol.

Babaji: Exactly.

Question: And I guess I’m imagining that they are within Universal Consciousness like Annie was saying. And sometimes I start my meditation, universal father, divine mother, beloved, I-am presence, friend, God. But I don’t want to create impressions –  it’s not like I’m stuck on that, but that’s like reaching the higher and then I let that go. Is that problematic or is that okay?

Babaji: Ah, it’s necessary that you shall not stuck into any such form. Because that’s why we also tell Shiva means ‘your existence in total thoughtlessness state’. When that is empty that is Shiva. Just like I have also explained, when this body dies, we call it as a Shava. Means, it is inert now, it won’t move. It won’t spin in any way. But Shiva appears to be just nothing, but it is absolute.

Same questioner: Thank you Baba.

Question: I must have read a hundred books on Advaita and Buddhist non-duality and Dzogchen. I’m a librarian, I’ve read so many texts on spirituality from biographies to deep, deep philosophical texts. But my question is, I make my living, I paint deities. That’s how I make my money to survive in this world. So I’m spending my time, my work time, I’m creating forms. And it’s always a question for me. You know, I try to do as much as possible. I try to do a mantra for whatever, like I’m painting a picture of Ardhanareeshwara. I do a Shiva mantra or a Shakti mantra. If I’m painting an image of Hanuman, I’m trying to do some Hanuman Chalisas, some Hanuman Mantra. And I’m just going on like that. I’m not worrying too much about any of this. But what is the place in your approach for these forms of the deity?

Babaji: These forms help you to make your mind single-pointed. In other words, instead of getting involved into millions of thoughts, you just try to remain focused on to one thought. When you fall in love with Hanuman, day in and day night, you just chant Hanuman. So your mind becomes single pointedly, remain focused. In due course of time, when you are able to do more meditation and Tapas, and by the same Hanuman which is the form of the divinity, the grace, he takes out the poison of this duality and gives you the experience of the non-duality, the oneness. It will happen in due course of time, but seeing your temperament, for a while just now just continue with whatever you are doing. That is helpful.

Question: Okay. But if I’m skipping, like say I’m painting Hanuman for six months, I’m doing Hanuman Mantra, then I get a commission, someone is wanting an image of Ardhanareeshwara right now, I’m doing for somebody, so I’m doing Shiva Mantra or Devi Mantra. But I’m skipping, you know, because I feel like I have to create some kind of relationship with this object I’m creating to imbibe it with something, whatever I have.

Babaji: You see, a deeper meditation practice and eventual Tapas can eliminate all impressions that are in your consciousness. After that, if you paint, if you don’t paint, it won’t matter. See, after Tapas we experienced the enlightenment, Atma saakshaatkar, but by a childhood habit as a Praarabdha and to inspire others, we do some chants, we do some singing, and we do offer some water on the Shivalingam. Like it would appear for anybody, “Oh Baba is also simply offering worship”, but no imprints is carried on to my consciousness. I’m fully aware this is only symbolic of the All-Pervaded, that Ultimate one single Self, which is beyond any identity. It is neither God nor not God. It is neither something nor nothing. Like that my mind does not observe any imprints. Mechanically it does everything, I pour water on Shivalingam. I chant Shiva’s Stothra and I sing about Shiva, but I’m watching, twenty years. So nothing has been absorbed. It doesn’t sit into the mind, it simply gets erased. I don’t fall in love with the form only anymore. Others might enjoy if they watch me doing these exercises, others do enjoy, they feel inspired.

Same questioner: Jai Baba (laughs).

Babaji: It will come one day. Keep meditating, keep painting, keep meditating, keep painting, keep meditating, keep painting. You will see the meditation will enable your mind to make it disappear. The painting in the hand you will do, but in the mind it will disappear.

Same questioner: Thank you Baba.

Babaji: Wonderful, Agastya. I think we have come to an end. And lovely, very beautiful questions. You gave a pick up to others to ask such questions. I deeply appreciate all your participation.

End of Session