0:00 Intro
0:07 Viveka Choodamani – Chapter 11, Verse 59, 60 & 61
1:30 What is the real nature of the Aatman?
3:25 How do we get to be at Babaji’s Lotus feet?
5:30 What should our sadhana be to keep this blessing of being able to be in Babaji’s presence to learn?
7:33 Viveka Choodamani – Chapter 12, Verse 62
8:24 How is it that we are ignorant? What it is that we are ignorant about?
11:25 Viveka Choodamani – Chapter 12, Verse 62 contd.
12:26 How should we apply this knowledge of the all-pervaded Self as space – the only thing that exists in itself?
17:41 Viveka Choodamani – Chapter 12, Verse 62 contd.
18:14 To remove ignorance we have to become aware of the permanent thing in life, the Self?
23:02 Viveka Choodamani – Chapter 12, Verse 63 & 64
24:17 Why do we get attached to the impermanence of the world?
29:25 Is it correct to say that all that exists in our mind is an illusion?
32:49 How to stop analysing and making unnecessary judgments in daily activities?

Discourse: In Quest of Truth – online Q&A no.213
Importance of The Knowledge of the Self
You tube Link: https://youtu.be/S6dh3a9Xty4   
Recorded: 20 February 2025

Start of Questions and Answers

Facilitator:   Today’s topic, chapter 11, Babaji, ‘Importance of Knowledge of the Self.’  Verses 59, 60, and 61 [from the Viveka Choodamani].

The devoted study of scriptures is in vain, as long as the highest truth has not been experienced.  When that highest truth is experienced, the study of scriptures is equally in vain.  The scriptures, a web of words like a dance for us, can cause the mind to wander here and there aimlessly.  Those who know this truth should earnestly strive to know the real nature of the Aatman, the true Self.  When one is bitten by the snake of ignorance, they can only be cured by the Realization of the Ultimate Truth, Brahman.  What is the use of Vedas, scriptures, mantras or medicine?

Babaji’s comment in the book: One should reach spiritual teachings to understand the need for liberation, and then to motivate oneself to strive for liberation by practicing.  Simply if one reads scriptures and tries to become a Guru, such a one ends up confusing students, and can be misguiding masses.  One should set the highest quality teachings to study for inspiration and motivation.

Question:   First question, Babaji.  Babaji, what is the real nature of the Aatman?

Babaji Maharaj:   Actually, we can give a little bit of clue, but Aatman as it is, is totally inexplicable and cannot be defined through words or sentences.  That is the reason the comments also we have told that you read a scripture just to motivate yourself and also feel inspired.  But after that you need to get into sadhana, sadhana of meditation to silence the mind.  That is when the Aatman is revealed.  However, here to give you a clue I will tell, in your mind there are millions of thoughts there.  Amongst them, one thing is the consciousness of your existence.  This experience is there for everybody, but they seldom notice because of their preoccupation with the thoughts and visions, which are imagined appearance only.  So, through the practice of meditation you need to get rid of these thoughts and visions, achieve the silence of the mind, then the Aatman is revealed.  Means you will be able to pay attention and become aware of the Aatman that you are. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Babaji, You’ve mentioned in Your commentary, “To learn at the Lotus Feet of a Realized Master is the highest.”  Babaji, how do we get to be at Your lotus feet?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, in olden days, one needed to visit physically to the abode of Guru.  Even now also, that is a great bonus.  That is the highest effect when you are able to sit at the Lotus Feet of the beloved Master, who is a Self-Realized Master.  However, for all those who are unable to approach and reach the Guru’s abode or sit at His Lotus Feet, social media is there, like Zoom or the Microsoft Teams that we are doing now.  You are able to see Baba live, and Baba is able to make all of you to sit into meditation.  And then we are able to answer your questions to enlighten all participants more clearly about what they need to know and what they are supposed to do.  So, this is the thing. 

If possible, one should always try.  At least once or twice in a year, they should try to come to the place of the Master to have His darshan, to sit with Him.  That will be a totally different thing, listening to me in front of me.  Other than that, these things are the best options there.  We have emails and we have WhatsApp messages coming and going.  So, all these things are available in today’s world.  But, however, always sitting at the physical Lotus Feet of a Master is going to be the highest. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  The next question.  Babaji, in relation to question two, what should our sadhana be to keep this blessing of being able to be in Your presence to learn?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yearning, yearning to see a Guru, be at His lotus feet is very important.  And a determined effort, at least to go once in a while to be at His Lotus Feet is also very important.  This devotion, attachment to the Master, a love, natural love, all these things are very important.  Then only one will be able to go.  Apart from this, you see, we try to conduct retreats in India also, wherever I am.  Like, recently we concluded a retreat for fifteen days.  Slowly, slowly, we are trying to increase how many people that we can take.  First time, we took around twenty, twenty five.  This time, we could take about forty students who came and participated.  They could be with me for fifteen days sitting and practicing meditation.  Sitting in front of me they were able to ask questions personally, and they had a chance to listen to my answers.  The next best option is this type of Zoom classes or the Microsoft Teams, through that we conduct the meditation.  So, due to health reasons, I could not come online for a couple of months since January, many times we were absent.  But slowly we are picking up and I assure all participants, all devoted, all spiritual seekers that we will be coming more on this regularly now to enlighten you to help you to do sadhana. 

Facilitator:   Thank You, Babaji.  The next topic, ‘Essence of Direct Experience’, Verse 62.

A disease is not cured just by saying “medicine.”  One has to actually take the medicine.  In the same way, just saying “Brahman, Brahman” will not give you Liberation.  It is attained only by the direct Realization of That. 

Babaji’s comment in the book: Generation after generation use the same terminology blindly for teaching without trying to understand what is it that is right in front of them.  As a young boy, I used to wonder, “If God is all-pervaded, how can God escape our eyes?”  Only ignorance can make this happen. 

Question:   Babaji, can You please expand further on this statement?  How is it that we are ignorant?  Or what is it that we are ignorant about?

Babaji Maharaj:   Many times, when youngsters have asked me, “Does God exist really?” I have told them, “Try to know what God is, then your problem of where God is will be solved.”  You need to know.  So, a thing that is all-pervaded, how can it escape?  Simply, if you don’t know what it is, then you tell that “I cannot see.”  When you enter a room, you are looking for a particular person.  There are several people sitting there.  But you don’t know about that person.  You haven’t seen him before about whom you are trying to look for.  So, you won’t see that person there until somebody guides you, to tell that “This is the person you are looking for.”  So, that is where you need a Guru to teach you, “This is what is God that is in front of you.  This all pervaded.” 

You see, whereas the scriptures talk of Aatman or Brahman, if you all notice in my commentaries, in my teachings, in the books published, I have not tried to use either of these words, Brahman or Aatman.  Just, whatever you can understand in a simple way, I have tried to explain.  Just like a while ago, I told you, in your mind, you have millions of thoughts.  When you close the eyes to meditate, those thoughts all will crop up.  But in the midst of them, you will also have consciousness of your existence.  You always have the feeling that you exist.  But you seldom notice this point, because of your preoccupation with your imaginations that are in the form of thoughts and visions.  You get attracted to visions.  You try to know what is the meaning.  You try to make judgments.  So, thus you are so busy with watching the cinema that is in the mind, you don’t watch yourself.  You don’t become aware of yourself who is watching.  So, for this purpose only, the sadhana of meditation is taught that you just watch in between eyebrows.  If you go on watching, you will be able to get rid of all thoughts and visions.  Then what remains is the pure consciousness of existence.  Then its attention turns to itself.  Then you will know this is the ‘I’. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Still on verse 62.

Babaji’s comment in the book: In Yoga Vasistha, Sage Vasistha repeatedly says that one single Self, which he referred to as Aatman, Brahman, exists in itself.  I started contemplating “What is it that is all-pervaded and is in itself?”  I was wonderstruck that space is the only thing that is in itself.  On the one side it is space and on the other side, all object matter in whatever form science recognizes, all these exist in space and cannot and do not exist without space.  Space is the permanent eternal entity of existence which cannot be made to disappear.  Space is both something and nothing.  It is also neither something nor nothing.  Depending on the way your conscious mind recognizes and names it, it appears in the same way. 

Question:   Babaji, Your commentary above is beautiful as well as mind blowing to us.  Could you please elaborate further on this for our better understanding and also help us understand how we should apply this knowledge in our current life?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, just now above what I have commented, you all heard that the space is the only thing which exists in itself, but just now through naked eyes and with the mouth, the language that you know, you cannot communicate with the space.  But this space is connected to your mind.  I would like to say this space is not just a void place, it is the Supreme Consciousness of existence.  Just like your mind is also made up of consciousness of existence, this mind’s Ultimate Truth is the space which is all-pervaded.  And this is the Supreme Consciousness of existence.  But how can you experience or communicate with this?  That is why in all forms of worship or sadhana, it is always advocated by great Gurus that you apply your mind.  If you are doing aarati, if you are doing worshiping or if you are meditating, your mind has to be there. 

Suppose you are sitting closed eyes to meditate, but your mind has run away, anywhere, shopping complex; all over the world it can be roaming, and imagining and storytelling, it has become a chatterbox – then you won’t be able to notice yourself or your mind.  Here, when you are trying to meditate, mind is trying to watch itself.  That is why we tell, “Just watch, do not analyze, do not try to make any judgments when thoughts and visions come.  Whether it is good or bad, right or wrong, any Divine form that you have visualized or anything else, just don’t get involved, become quiet. 

Then you will reach the Ultimate Truth of Parabrahman.”  So, that is what it is.  The name is from the scripture, but here it is the Ultimate Truth that we can tell.  For this you have to do sadhana.  It is an individual experience.  When you go introverted… means, introverted here, why the mind is extroverted;  it is watching its imaginations.  But if it stops watching that one, then all the imagined thoughts and visions disappear.  When silence of the mind is achieved, it would have regained the form of pure consciousness.  It has become one with the consciousness.  Then that spark of consciousness merges, gets absorbed into the Ultimate Truth called Self.  That is where from that ‘I’ is also arising for you. 

So, these are the things you have to observe when you practice meditation.  Otherwise, if you simply keep talking to your thoughts and visions, making judgments and making this and that, then you won’t be able to notice.  Years pass by for many seekers; they complain that “We have been meditating for thirty years, forty years, but I have not experienced anything.”  You have not experienced anything because you have not achieved silence of the mind.  You are always getting involved with your imagined thoughts and visions.  All thoughts and visions are all your imagined existence.  It is there.  They have only appearance value, but not existence value.  But mind itself has the existence value.  When you go deep into that one, that which the word is used as samadhi, in that samadhi, a yogi experiences the all-pervaded space as the Supreme Consciousness of existence. 

You can communicate only through the brain.  The brain is in touch with the mind.  The mind is in touch with the brain’s reflections.  The mind is in touch with this world through the brain.  If the brain goes, the mind is withdrawn and it has to assume another body and another brain has to come; only then it comes back to the world.  But to experience the truth, you have to go beyond this.  That is what is known as ‘go beyond the time and space concepts’.  This is possible when you achieve silence through the practice of meditation. 

Facilitator:   Thank You, Babaji.  Still on Verse 62. 

Babaji’s comment in the book: Contemplation after reading, experience through observation and determined practice of meditation are necessary for realization.  “Snake of ignorance” means that ignorance can be like a venomous snake and its deadly poison that creates so much fear and happiness, stress, confusion, and ignorance.  This is the basic cause of illusion. 

Question:   Babaji, so to overcome these illusions we need to remove ignorance and to remove ignorance, we need to become aware of the permanent thing in our life, which is our true Self, the Aatman, the Supreme Consciousness.  Is this correct, Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, this is the correct thing.  But for this, you have to do sadhana.  It doesn’t happen in one day.  That is why we teach determination and dedication, discipline and patience.  You have to offer yourself and sit for meditation every day, it is very much necessary.  Then you have to understand the technique that the Master repeatedly teaches you “Just watch in between eyebrows,” means any thought, any vision comes, just watch, don’t bother about them at all.  Just like when you are sitting, two people are talking to each other, you ignore, you don’t bother, you just remain in yourself, you will have peace.  Otherwise, you will become curious, then you will become inquisitive; “What they are talking? Are they talking about me?  Should I know that one?  Quietly, I should try to hear what they are talking.”  So, your peace is gone.  Your attention is gone there.  Like that, watching a movie, your attention gets sucked to the movie so strongly.  You consider that movie as a reality and forget that you are sitting and watching the movie at all.  For this, you have to withdraw your attention from the movie.  That is what you are precisely trying to do in meditation, keeping quietly, just watching means. 

As I have repeatedly told, mind has two aspects, one is it can think, or it can watch.  You just stick to watching, then it will give up thinking.  As it gives up thinking, then all thoughts and visions disappear.  They won’t be there.  They are there because you are imagining; you have the stress in the mind because you are not giving up the imaginations.  You are wildly imagining, “O, that person might be scolding me, that person might be accusing me, that person might be trying to kill me,” so many imaginations magnifying, which is not necessary.  So, that is why in meditation, just bother watching.  Then, when one day you will see all thoughts and visions disappear, then that consciousness of existence is there.  That is what the Self is.  That is what is the ‘I’ also, ‘I’ thought coming.  It is not an imagined thought, it is a reality.  For this, you have to practice. 

So, that is why in our classes, we try to conduct like a workshop.  One hour you all practice.  Then, let us discuss about such things – what you were trying to do, what you were supposed to do.  One hour before these questions and answers we were trying to practice meditation.  Now, you all participants ask yourself, what were you doing in that one hour?  Could you remain quiet or were you gossiping with your own mind’s imaginations, or were you a chatterbox, or did your mind run away anywhere else?  That is what is important.  Ask yourself.  So, you needed to be silent. 

Next time when you sit for meditation, remember not to get involved with any thought or visions.  During meditation, and if you want to know your real Self, these thoughts and visions are not useful at all.  They might be useful in the world.  They might be needed for you in this world to entertain you, to give you stress, to give you happiness, to give you unhappiness; it has to be there.  But if you want to know yourself, these thoughts are not useful.  So, you have to keep quiet and just watch.  So, next time remember when you sit again – in that one hour your effort should be to just watch, means without bothering, without thinking, just keep watching and then see the wonder. 

Facilitator:   Thank You, Babaji.  Verse 63 and 64.

Until this apparent creation dissolves from one’s consciousness, until one attains direct experience of the true Self, the Aatman, how can one attain liberation just by saying “Brahman”?  It is just noise.  Until one destroys the enemy and actually takes possession of the wealth and splendor of the kingdom, one does not become a king simply by saying “I am king.”  

Babaji’s comment in the book: There’s a separate world sitting in everybody’s consciousness, called the mind.  As you experience the universe called the ‘scene’ through the sensory organs, a message is passed to the brain.  It is the brain which decodes everything and converts it as thought processes and visual effects.  In this process, as the brain reflects, the mind absorbs everything as imprints and holds on to it as long as it is not purified and Truth is not experienced.  Thus, a separate world sits in the mind.  First, this thing needs to be cleared. 

Question:   Babaji knowing that this world is temporary and keeps changing its shape, why then do we get attached to this impermanence?  Babaji, can our mind not distinguish between what is permanent and what is impermanent?

Babaji Maharaj:   That is what is known as illusion and ignorance has happened.  Due to long, long time, time immemorial, many lives have passed by.  Watching this type of the world, we have got attracted.  Just like while dreaming, such a dream appears to be so solid and real, you cannot make out that you are dreaming.  But luckily, that dream is of a shorter experience; that’s why you get up and you are able to make out.  But still in spite of that, sometimes certain dreams can be very solid and deep strength in picture, megapixels – that can be troublesome.  For many days, even years, some people may not be able to forget the dream.  The dream also can be troublesome.  It can be giving stress.  And that also, we do not realize that after all, it was a dream, it was not a reality, and why we should become so stressed and necessarily just because we got a dream.  

That much also, humans are unable to exercise proper intelligence, wisdom and understand the things.  So, this is what happened.  So, imagine the strength of the megapixel picture of this universe.  This is the manifested world of a higher consciousness.  We forget our own mind’s imagination that it is imagination and we get attracted, considering that mind’s imagination to be a fundamental reality.  All our reaction when we get into an anger is because of our own mind’s imagination.  Everybody, they imagine, and they get anger, they get frustrated, they get stressed out, they get hatred, they get dislike.  So many, all these keep happening, simply because they imagine in the mind; that need not be the truth at all.  But imagine, seeing this world, this universe is such a strong manifested world.  Nobody can make out that this is a dream just by watching like this. 

Only when you reach the higher consciousness through the practice of meditation, and when this universe also disappears only you can experience.  Until then you can never understand this; the ignorance always will prevail.  That is what is illusion.  That is why you are unable to understand, you get attracted.  And we knit a web also; “O, this is mine.  This is not mine.  I need this one.  This is so dear to me.  This is not dear.”  So, we make ourselves so narrow – connected to this physical body, we connect everything as ‘my dearest.’  So, thus, that is what we call as narrow-minded and selfish people.  In the society you get to see now and then, people are so selfish and narrow minded.  Anything connected to their blood or their body, they become so excited, so happy.  Otherwise, they are not happy. 

So, these things all happening.  This is all because of the illusion.  Their narrow mindedness, their wisdom has not broadened, their spiritual practices are not enough, good enough.  So, this is what is essential.  All spiritual practices, meditation needs to be up to the point understanding the technique.  If one-hour you are sitting, how much you could simply watch and how much you could go on thinking, it matters.  That is whether you were really meditating or you were trying to meditate or you actually forgot to meditate, try to meditate at all.  Many times we keep the eyes closed and we get involved so much, chatterbox with our own imaginations and we even forget that we were trying to meditate also.  Means three stages happens.  First, we forget that we were trying to meditate.  Then we try to meditate.  Then finally, one day we will meditate when we are successful.  These points need to be understood, then only your meditation will be successful.  You will be able to experience the truth that we are trying to explain here. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Babaji, is it then correct to say that all that exists in our consciousness called the mind is an illusion?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes.  All the things that are in your mind is your own mind’s imagination.  And people want to believe whatever is in their mind, forgetting that they are simply imagining and that is why things are appearing to them like that.  A person is so dear to them because they are imagining in their mind “This is mine.”  Another person may not be so dearer for them because they are imagining, “O, this is not my relation, not my blood relation.  Why should I bother?  This is not my family.”  Like this, in this world, society, you get to see people behaving.  They forget.  They get to listen to spiritual talks, lectures, they try to meditate.  But when it comes to behavior, they end up behaving narrow-minded and selfish.  They totally forget what it is.  They are unable to consider about in a larger cause, broad-mindedly they are unable because their practice is not good enough.  They simply sit down but end up simply sitting physically but not becoming quiet mentally. 

They keep being a chatterbox, they keep thinking, they keep their anger, they keep their dislikes, they keep their jealousies, they are unable to overcome all these things.  That is why the sages called kaama, kroda, lobha, moha, madha, matsarya, extreme greediness, extreme anger and extreme stinginess, extreme attachment to this impermanent world and jealousy, false pride.  These are the human mind’s six enemies.  Means whoever has got these things in their mind, their mind is the first casualty.  They get succumbed.  They believe in such a way, they imagine and they believe firmly what they are imagining is the correct thing.  The truth need not be, it can be something else, who knows.  So, that is what we need to realize when we practice meditation and real spiritual exercises.  That was why these religious practices of worshipping God were also taught.  For this purpose only, to keep the mind purified, but if we do not adopt the mind and practice chanting, or worship, doing aarti or music, bhajan singing, finally highest as meditation, if we don’t do it, our minds will never change.  We will always be suffering with these things.  This is what we get to see.  There are no results in the society.  People talk of spirituality, they go everywhere, but there is no result when it comes to their behavior. 

Question:   Thank You, Babaji.  Babaji, during meditation, we can to an extent not pay attention and analyze the thoughts that appear.  How do we stop analyzing and making unnecessary judgments in our daily activities, Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   During meditation, if you successfully practice that you do not get involved with your mind’s thoughts and visions.  How long you are able to keep it like that, quiet; mind just watching.  Say you are sitting for one hour, in that one hour, how long you are able to keep yourself quiet mentally? Five minutes, ten minutes?  The day when you are able to increase this quietness to fifteen minutes, thirty minutes, forty-five minutes, and when you successfully are able to keep quiet for one hour, then your day-to-day activities also, you will see transformation in yourself, you will always try to see a larger cause, you will be able to consider about each other, you will be able to forgive. 

You see, when you become mature, sometimes it may be difficult to forgive, if it is an enmity, he is trying to destroy you, you have a right to defend, you have a right to show anger, but however, compared to others, the percentage that you can forgive will be tremendous, much more.  If others cannot even forget, forgive one percent, we are able to forgive hundreds and thousands of such things, we are able to forgive every day.  We are able to keep quiet, forgo it, let go things.  “This was my prarabhda, what to do? We had to undergo; forget about it,” like this.  But you have to practice spiritual exercises and meditation sincerely to the technique, what the Master teaches.  If the Master asks you “Just watch,” means you have to watch.  You should not think.  When you are watching, you must not try to analyze anything, must not make any judgment. 

Slowly, if small, smaller things, you do not make judgment.  In your life, if small, smaller things do not become an issue, you are able to give up and forget, then you will see your capacity increases.  Slowly, slowly, when your capacity increases tremendously, many, many folds that you are able to let go things, then only you are called a saint.  Same human being, when he is able to do this one, his mind is so purified, they come to be known as saints.  There are no extra horns on a saint.  It is the same human being, simply the behavior has become matured.  He is a matured human being actually, we can tell.  Whom we call as a saint is actually a matured human being who can see a larger cause.  Who can see what is justice.  Who is able to forgive and forget.  All human beings cannot do this.  You watch and observe quietly; every second day, every second person you get to see, you will say, “O God, so selfish and narrow-minded.” 

This whole world is like that, society, human world is like that.  But you have to practice.  This is why we repeatedly tell, you read a scripture, is very good, we recommend, but you have to read a scripture to motivate yourself, to feel influenced, to feel inspired.  Like you attend these meditation classes.  After one hour you are given a chance to listen to this question and answer.  When you and me discuss, you ask me a question and I answer, all other seventy, eighty participants are given a choice that they also can listen to this question and my answers.  That means they are listening to my teachings when I am answering.  They are seeing me live – if only they are keeping their minds concentrated on to my answers when I am talking;  they are also being given my teachings. 

So, then they have to adopt, they must feel inspired.  The moment they go back after this class is over, every day they must sit for meditation.  This is essential, without fail; that is the discipline and dedication, patience is required.  As they practice patience, it increases.  For small, smaller things you practice patience; don’t show your anger, don’t act upon, don’t misbehave.  But you forgive, be honest, try to behave well, try to give some happiness to others, all these things you do, don’t be selfish!  Then slowly, your maturity increases.  Otherwise, it goes down, it goes down, you will become more selfish, more selfish, you will be reading and listening, you will be sitting and nothing happens. 

So, these things must be followed.  What you were all listening to, what I have told just now is very important.  Then only your mind can become purified, you can become a matured person and you will not absorb any imprints and you will be able to see a larger cause; you will be able to forgive better.  Defending yourself is totally different.  You have a right to defend yourself, but you don’t have to be entertaining in the mind all the time something bad about such people. 

End of Questions and Answers

Babaji Maharaj now concludes:

   Some wonderful questions came up giving me a chance and to express my opinion, my experiences.  I hope it was beneficial for all of you who were listening.  When you practice meditation, remember these teachings and practice accordingly, then there will be success in life also.  May you all be blessed by Swamiji Maharaj, Shivabalayogi, our beloved Guru; all our love and blessings also. 

End of Session