0:00 Intro
0:12 Did Adi Shankara come to revive the Hindu faith?
2:39 Babaji is asked about a passage in the Yoga Vasistha
5:41 Different teachers advocate the practice of counting breathes as a form of dhyana. Are they trying to accomplish a steady breath?
7:40 What is the significance of the snake in Hinduism?
9:09 I feel a sudden jerk sometimes in meditation, like an electric shock, why does that happen?
9:58 Did Babaji have strong experiences in meditation and was samadhi achieved prior to doing Tapas?
10:55 Did Babaji have much time to meditate when Swamiji was there at the Dehradun Ashram?
11:22 Aside from the sense of peace what were the signs that you were practising the meditation correctly?
12:17 What is the importance of service to the Guru and how can it help?
15:31 Could Baba talk of when in Swamiji’s time people would go into bhava Samadhi and Babaji had to intervene?
30:13 Did Ramakrishna Paramahansa used to go into genuine bhava samadhi?
30:41 What does it mean to go into Krishna consciousness and why is it taught?
35:13 What books would Babaji recommend to people from the West?
35:55 For learning Advaita would Babaji recommended Bhagavad Gita, Tattva Loka and Brahma Sutras?
37:16 Because it’s very hard for people of this modern age to meditate, so they say that all you need to do is take the name of Krishna and you will achieve the peace.
38:28 Babaji always had Gnan, Bhakti – could Babaji have been Self-Realized before Tapas?
47:16 Is it destiny which determines when someone will go into Tapas?
50:01 Would Tapas look the same for each person or would it be different?
50:45 Ramakrishna Paramahansa did a variety of practices, did that all count as Tapas?
51:19 Can Babaji talk about some experiences that happened to Babaji during Tapas?
51:52 Where is the balance between serving others and practicing meditation to achieve Self Realization. For instance Mother Teresa wouldn’t have been able to help others if she was mostly in meditation.

Discourse: In Quest of Truth
DSM Retreat 2024 Day 4 Evening
Recorded: February 2024

Start of Questions and Answers
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Question:   Did Adi Shankaracharya come to revive the Hindu faith?

Babaji Maharaj:   Even if it was a coincidence or He came for that purpose, we have to take it in that faith.  But He revived.  He tried to standardize Hinduism.  A lot of blind faithism was prevailing, particularly in rural areas.  That’s why some historians believe He tried to give the six concepts.  He is also known as Shanmata Stapanacharya in one book I have read; the concept of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, Mother Goddess, Bhuneshwari, Ganesha and Kartikeya.  He tried to tell because villages, any small thing, even there was some illness, they used to think it is the annoyance of some angel, so “We have to worship, we have to kill some animal offering”, like this type of thing.  He tried to stop them, “These are all blind faith and not the truth actually.  So instead of going to so many devi–devatas, just worship one”, that is why Kartikeya is known as Devasena Pati, commander-in-chief, Ganesha is the obstacle remover, Vigneshwara, and Goddess Mother.  So, like that He tried to revive and tried to teach those things on the bhakti marga side.  And one side He tried to teach the Advaita also.  So, that is what He tried.  Perhaps if He had not come at that time, we could have lost all Upanishads and things like Janmashtami, Ramanavami, all these would have disappeared.  That is what Kanchi Periyar Paramacharya also has said in one of the articles.  He came and He saved.  Still His mutts are going on in Sringeri, Dwarka, Puri. 

Question:   Babaji is asked about a passage in the Yoga Vashista.

Babaji Maharaj:   [Babaji reads the passage presented to Him] “Unconsciousness that follows the inaction of the heart and the mind.  Then vital breath is suspended is the highest perfection.” [Yoga Vashista] 

   See, here, the first sentence, the mind has to give up all its imaginations.  So, the mind has to become unconscious of its imaginations.  Then it regains the consciousness, its form.   Heart means here also, feelings, emotions of the mind.  They both need to become inaction, stop its activities.  Then the mind becomes quiet.  “Then vital breath is suspended is the highest perfection.”  “Vital breath is suspended”, here  I don’t know why this ‘suspended’ word has been used by the translator.  So, vital breath, you hold it so that it doesn’t vibrate too much.  Generally, Patanjali has said, the irregular moment of the respiration can be disturbing for the mind.  A steady, stabilizing breath can quieten the mind.  So, that is what is important as we keep discussing these things and that is the highest perfection.  That is when total stillness, samadhi is experienced.  In that samadhi you experience the truth of existence. 

   “There is pleasure seeing phenomena which is common to all living beings, but this being felt spiritually amounts to holy pleasure.  The sight of God in one’s consciousness.”

   So, that’s what the final meaning is, this is the thing.  When the breath is totally stabilized, it is suspended means we cannot take it as totally stopping the breath because if the breath is totally stopped, that means the body is dead, falls dead.  Smoothly it has to be going, but not attracting your attention, amounting to that one.  That’s what is the suspension.  So, your attention is suspended from there.  So, then it is totally still.  Consciousness is still, precisely that’s what has to be the meaning.  So that is the highest perfection.  It means when you achieve total stillness of your mind, regaining the form of consciousness, that is the perfection.  That’s what will take you to Self-realization.

Question:   Different teachers advocate the practice of counting breaths as a form of dhyana.  Are they trying to accomplish a steady breath?

Babaji Maharaj:   Counting breath I could call it as a preliminary round exercise to make the mind single pointed.  Instead of allowing it to go into millions of thoughts, to reduce and finish all those thoughts, you just pay attention to the counting of breath.  So, then mind can stop there.  It gives up all other thoughts and imaginations eventually.  But it will be stuck there.  It won’t become totally purified and go back to Self.  Like here also, you have to suspend your attention to the breath also.  That’s what that sentence’s meaning is.  Means you have to withdraw your attention from the breath also.  Let the breath be slowly, quietly going like that.  Then the mind gets totally purified.  So, what remains is the Self. 

As He has also spoken the same Adi Shankaracharya also in Viveka Choodamani, means when in your consciousness – consciousness means when the mind is totally purified no more thoughts are there, no more visions, no imagination is there – when you come face to face, that consciousness, you become aware of that.  And when that consciousness is not into any type of imagination, it should not be aware of the breath also.  The breath has to go automatically; simply it’s going on.  But mentally you don’t have to be aware.  So, that is – “Know that existence as the truth of existence,” what Adi Shankaracharya uses in Viveka Choodamani.  The same meaning is what that sentence [from Yoga Vashista]) tells actually. 

Question:   What is the significance of the snake in Hinduism?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, one thing is, like many teachers have symbolized the rising of kundalini to the moving of a serpent.  So, it would symbolize that thing.  You worship Lord Shiva means, if you achieve the mind’s total cleansing and regaining the form of consciousness, that lifts the body consciousness and adorns.  Means in other words they both become one mass and get detached from the brain and the seeker feels as if he is here [pats the top of the head].  So, this is also symbolizing the thousand petals lotus.  There is no lotus there but the teacher would have said when the consciousness is here it is ready and blossomed, purified, ready to go to samadhi.  It is blossomed just like a thousand petals lotus blossoming.  Like that, symbolizing only.  And finally they have put it onto the neck of Lord Shiva. Shiva is when you achieve total thoughtlessness state of your mind, that is Shiva, then that lifts the body consciousness and adorns it, means they both become one mass.  That could be the significance here. 

Question:   I feel a sudden jerk sometimes in meditation like an electric shock.  Why does that happen?

Babaji Maharaj:   Sometimes the energy movement keeps happening.  Whenever the mind is better concentrating it tries to lift the body consciousness, but as the mind runs away it gets dropped also.  When that is moving that’s when sometimes one is likely to feel the type of jerk or any such thing.  Keep yourself firmly to the back with the cushion so that you don’t fall. If you are on the chair, try to see at least it has the handles like this, this type of chair is much better.  Without anything, that’s when your body is likely to fall down; so that you can at least hold like this. 

Question:   Did Babaji have strong experiences in meditation and was samadhi achieved prior to doing tapas?

Babaji Maharaj:   Mostly the experience was peace.  It was unmindful of the surroundings, who was behaving in which way, whether being humiliated, whether being scolded or finding faults, anything, or how anybody behaved in any way also.  It didn’t seriously sit into the mind, as the mind was totally peaceful.  That one experience only I can recollect exactly.  That type of thing.  Body used to become warm even in the winter’s coldness also, even if I was just with a waist cloth, so the body would sweat sometimes and it would become very warm. 

Question:   Did Babaji have much time to meditate when Swamiji was there at the Dehradun Ashram?

Babaji Maharaj:   When Swamiji was in Dehradun, He used to be there for a couple of months.  That time it was service.  When He used to go away from there, at that time during daytime I used to meditate – behind we had bushes and mango trees – under a mango tree I used to go and meditate for several hours there, six to seven hours like that. 

Question:   Aside from the sense of peace are there any other signs that you are practicing the meditation correctly?

Babaji Maharaj:   I didn’t notice anything much except peace.  I used to remain quiet.  Sometimes, many people used to wonder also, “He doesn’t react and doesn’t say anything; he’s like a dumb person.”  Usually, such dumb persons are considered stupid; they don’t react to this world.  So it used to be that type of quietness and just go on doing work, that’s what it is.  In fact, the general whom we talk about who was a devotee of Swamiji, sometimes he used to tell “You need to be a bit alert and do some noises otherwise people will take you for granted.  Everybody will sit on your head.  You must show that you are alert, you will react to certain things”, so that type of thing.

Question:   What is the importance of service to the Guru and how can it help?  

Babaji Maharaj:   Service is like a karma yoga, means when you do the service without the idea of doership or without expecting any fruits; because the boss has told you, you do it, you are unmindful of the results.  That type of thing.  Here, the boss is the Lord.  A Guru is like a Lord for us.  He wants me to do because… not that as Clifford was asking, He never asked me to meditate but He asked me to look after mentally challenged boy, look after children of the royal people who are studying in the school, become their local guardian.  Looking after them means bringing them on Sundays for outings, cook for them, play with them, and then drop them to school.  Sometimes, if they wanted to go to movies I used to stand in the queue in a cinema theater, buy the tickets for them and make them sit in the theater, come back to Ashram then two and a half hours later again go pick them up and drop, like all type of odd jobs.  A couple of times I have heard some people asking “Don’t you think all your youth is getting simply wasted with odd jobs?  You came for another purpose.”  I used to tell “I really don’t know for what purpose I came.  I just came for Swamiji.  So, whatever He has asked, just I am doing.  My mind is quiet, and it doesn’t absorb that “Why I have to do like this.”  

And in fact, one time at least, I remember Swamiji in the night was lying down and I was pressing His legs, then He said “Sometimes it might come to your mind that you have been given odd jobs.  You might wonder “Why I have to do all these things?”  If you don’t think like that, it can convert as a yoga for you.” He said this one.  That struck, that sat.  That means I should not take anything as serious – simply whether I was meditating, whether I was taking the boys to the cinema, both exercises became the same.  There was no difference.  The mind was becoming quiet and quiet. For the same purpose is what you close your eyes and you sit down; you have to watch.  So when you are working also if you just watch that, you just work and you are unmindful of the results and about the work also you are doing also you do not regret, or any reaction doesn’t occur.  So, that type of thing was happening.  So, that’s served as a great sadhana for me, twenty years.  That’s why, probably, in the vision after Swamiji’s passing away, He told “Twenty years of your selfless service has given you seven years of fruits of tapas.”  Means for seven years if we had sat for tapas, the amount of mind that would become quiet and gone in, that has happened.  “So, if you just another five years it should be enough.”  So, that’s the vision that came.  That was how finally I did five years. 

Question:   Could Babaji talk about when in Swamiji’s time people would go into bhava samadhi and Babaji had to intervene?

Babaji Maharaj:   Swamiji blessed from His yoga some people to go into a trance.  Though ‘trance’ is the nearest word one could use but the original Sanskrit word is bhava samadhi, meaning you get into a single pointed devotion and your mind goes into stillness with that bhava, with that imagination of the Divinity.  Like, for example, if Hanuman’s bhajan is being sung, one person who is emotional, his mind all becomes single pointedly visualizing Hanuman, so he might get to see a vision of Hanumanji, and if he is emotional some people might see some action in his body: somewhat like that.  Because Swamiji had to handle so many types of people, not everybody was educated to receive the technique of meditation or understand the knowledge and wisdom.  Often in rural areas if people are not educated properly, many educated also, they would like to worship God only if God is powerful and can protect them.  They will not be bothered about any knowledge or wisdom, about the Self, its existence or any such thing.  They will not be interested. Even for a saint also, they will not be interested in what He has to talk about the Ultimate Truth, what He has to teach, like this.  They will just come, do pranaam and “We have to receive some grace and we should be alright every time.  No trouble should come.  That’s when I can understand that this is a real thing.”  More than that they cannot think.  

So, Swamiji thought, to bring them to a devotional path properly to understand that there is a Divinity and there is a higher consciousness or higher power exists, that people should not think that they can they are independent, and they can do anything they want.  That’s what He was arguing, talking; “Nobody is independent”, He was trying to tell.  Many things and almost everything, you have to do whether you like it and do it whether you don’t like it – then also you have to do it.  Like you have to eat food when you are hungry, if you don’t eat you will die. So you are forced to eat, means as if somebody has commanded, some boss has told “Now you go to the Earth.  Without eating you will die.  Even if you don’t like you will have to eat.  I will see if you will not eat it.”  That type, everything you have to do – you feel sleepy, you like or you don’t like, you would like to be awake but you have to go to sleep; you will fall asleep.

  So, that type of few things He was trying to argue.  But some people argued “How can that be?  Whenever I want, I will simply get up and I will go away.”   Swamiji tried to tell “When it comes to you inside, do you know the source of that coming that you want to get up and go away?”  Some people, when they sit with a saint, they don’t want to get up and go away from the saint; they will be so attracted, inspired.  But some people after two minutes would like to get up and go away.  They will become restless if the saint is trying to teach about God.  It will be irritating for them if it is not the worldly materialistic thing; they cannot listen to such things.  So, that was the thing.  Then Swamiji told “Okay, you all do bhajans,” and He went into dhyana, meditation.  So, some of them went into bhava samadhi, like they started dancing, everything.  So, after the bhajans were over He used to apply vibhuti and they used to cool down, become normal.  This was all in the sixties and seventies.  Swamiji started touring.  Wherever He went this type of bhava samadhi happened.  People got attracted to Him, His glow of the tapas power in the body was so attractive; anybody would simply fall in love, like madly people followed Him everywhere.  So, people, many times they used to go into genuine trance, means genuine bhava, a real emotional bhava they used to go, not that they planned or acted.  But by the time it was late seventies and early eighties the trend changed.  

Some people came to the Mission – this is my personal opinion, what I observed and watched – simply they all used to dance, and nobody troubled each other but the trend changed.  By trying to go into this…  Like this ‘trance’ is a wrong word we tell, means ‘you are possessed by’, that’s what is the meaning of ‘trance’.  But bhava samadhi is not that you are possessed by some other angel, some other God comes on you.  You yourself go into that bhava. So you will be benefited if you go into a samadhi stillness.  Three terminologies are there. Bhava udereka – udereka is a violent way of going, uderekrita. Bhava unmatata – unmatata is intoxication; in the name of God you feel intoxicated. Bhava samadhi is the highest of these three -in the name of Divine you go introverted; you become totally quiet.  These are all the preliminary round exercises for one to go into tapas and become Self-realized, actually.  So, that was how.  

   So, then some people started deliberately acting.  In a big rich person’s home, they used to do kirtans and their own daughter used to go to trance and control everyone.  If she didn’t like Ryan, “Ryan, you are not a good person, you are a bad guy.  You must go and sit there.  You come and sit here.”  So, like this type of discrimination, politically motivated drama, everything started happening. As long as there was no challenge, it went on. But one time to that group another businessman came.  So, businesspeople are always very shrewd and cunning; they are not innocent people.  So, quickly he also learnt this.  He thought, “If I don’t go then I will also get slapped.”  He also went into trance.  And if that lady said “You go and sit there,” he used  to be rebellious, “No, no you should not go.  You are a good guy.  She is telling a lie.  I am the right God who has come”, like that.  So, then they both fought.  She tried to slap him; he tried to get hold of her hair.  So, these types of things started happening.  

Swamiji was also bit hurt.  He was not happy with that, but He didn’t want to insult or embarrass any people in public,  so He tried to keep quiet.  My mind was also totally different.  I also didn’t accept this type of thing, never.  I never liked any God coming on any human being and telling.  From a young age I used to pray to God, “God, if at all you want to come, come on a buffalo, I will believe you.  Don’t come on a human being.  Human beings are the most unreliable creatures.  That’s what I used to think.  You never know when they will tell a lie.  Easily, very quickly they will tell “I saw God.  I know what I was in my previous life.”  Everything they will tell and it comes to the newspaper also.  If you try to verify, it will all be simply a story, that type of thing.  So, that’s what now we come to the question of Clifford.  

   There was one boy in Dehradun.  We used to do bhajans.  He needed to work in the kitchen.  To avoid going to the kitchen he used to go into trance and do things.  Then sometimes he used to deliberately fall on me once or twice when I was playing harmonium.  So, once he tried to tear my vest.  I was like this because summer months are hot.  So, when he tore that one instantly it occurred to me “I also need to go into a trance and teach this boy a lesson, otherwise every day he is going to tear one vest.  Where will I bring that?”  So, I also threw the harmonium, just shouted.  I was physically stronger than him and got hold of him.  Swamiji was in meditation; He was sitting there, and there was another devotee.  Politically he said, “Arre bhai, arre bhai, you will kill that boy, you will kill that boy.  He will die if you do like that one.”  Taking my name he was telling.  So, that boy fainted to avoid me pinching him.  I got hold of him and pinched him strongly and he fell down.  Then I also went into meditation.  Then afterwards Swamiji was sitting.  I brought Swamiji’s dinner.  Then that political person again said “Arre, Dikshitji went to such a trance ferociously, we thought he was going to kill that boy.”  Swamiji said “Hey, that boy went into trance.  He touched Seenu and Seenu went into trance.  That is all.”   Finished, that topic was over.  So, it was like diamond cutting the diamond.  You have to use the thorn to take out the thorn.  So, these type of things have happened in my life.  I have mentioned in Pure Grace also, I think.  

   And there was a village across the river.  The family used to come to our Dehradun Ashram.  So, their daughter also used to go to trance.  So, once we had been to Rishikesh; we were on the banks of Ganga River.  It was a full moon day.  Swamiji was sitting at a distance and General was a brigadier then; he was also there.  That girl was throwing sand when others wanted to sing, insisting that her sisters only should sing.  She was claiming that she was goddess Surkanda coming from a long distance but then she would throw sand on other people if they went to sing. So this was what was happening and Swamiji was also feeling irritated.  I was in the crowd moving around and she started coming towards Swamiji.  She was trying to close the eyes, almost closed so that nobody would see her and she would throw the sand; she lost direction probably, either knowingly or unknowingly and started coming towards Swamiji.  Then I felt alarmed and I came to Swamiji.  By then Swamiji was quite annoyed.  Swamiji signaled me, “Hey go and catch hold of her, badmash.”   Again, I did, I shouted and went and got hold and brought her.  That girl’s mother was shouting “Swamiji, my daughter will die, my daughter will die!”  Swamiji told “Hey when she was throwing sand she was Surkanda.  Now my boy is controlling her she has become your daughter suddenly.  We are controlling her as Surkanda.  Sit down quietly.”  That was what I have written.  So, these types of political situations also came – people trying to misuse, misinterpret, instead of going on to the spiritual path.  

   Actually, after the bhava samadhi they were to be encouraged that to find the spiritual truth you have to meditate and go to that one.  But many, many of them simply thought to attract attention… in places like Bangalore and other places if anybody went to trance, small garland would be put on them, somebody would do an aarathi with camphor also; innocent people of the rural area, they would do.  So, they thought “This is the right thing.  I can attract attention.  I become a special deity now.”  So, they went on doing like this one.  Sometimes they used to be violent, disturbing, throwing here, trying to beat. They had to be controlled during Swamiji’s time.  So, all these things happened.  That’s why I never liked it from day one in Dehradun.  I tried to stop everyone.  After Swamiji’s passing away we totally stopped.  So, that trouble is stopped.  We never encourage anything.  I just do my business of teaching meditation and spiritual truths.  That’s why I avoid talking about this trance at all.  Because he raised, I just wanted to give a background why Swamiji wanted.  To be precise it’s like giving a lollipop to the child to make it to go to school. But these people, instead of going to school they stuck to lollipops only all the time. So, that is the thing.  But finally, sadhana must happen.  One has to meditate, either through bhakti, either through dhyana they should become quiet.  Mind should go introverted, otherwise they will never achieve,  

   After my tapas when I went to Adivarapupeta also, one lady came and told “For last forty years I’m going to trance but I don’t find any result.  I don’t find any peace.”  I told “You are wasting time.  You meditate now.  Enough of this trance.”  And one old man came in Bangalore.  He told “Earlier days when I was young, I used to jump and dance.  Now I cannot jump.  I have developed arthritis, Swamiji.  I don’t know what to do.”  You don’t know what to do; you never meditated.  You wasted your time.  So, these things have never paid any real results.  It was a waste of time.  So many educated people became averse to this and went away also from the Mission.  So, these two things cannot go together.  This is what I have studied and observed.  Like all of you are there; you are all good and happy to meditate.  If in the midst of meditation, if somebody comes and keeps troubling and falling and a woman falling and you, throwing this, you will all become averse and you would like to go out of here, you wouldn’t like to sit;  “What is this nonsense that’s happening?”  Right?  

Question:   Did Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa go into genuine bhava samadhi?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, the priest told when they did a meeting that what Ramakrishna’s is, it is a Mahabhava, it’s a supreme bhava of the Divine’s bhava; all the time He used to be in that consciousness, like Mirabai used to be in Krishna consciousness.  That’s different.

Question:   What does it mean to go into Krishna consciousness and why is it taught?

Babaji Maharaj:   See, finally it’s an individual’s choice.  Generally, people or such teachers, when they practice, they would like to advocate that thing.  If I am eating idli, I would like to advocate that you also eat idli.  If I would like to drink wine and whisky I would advocate “Come on yaar (friend), come have some whisky and you must enjoy this one.”  This is human nature, whatever it is.  Then what you want, that’s what the choice is, yours.  You can remain if you like in that consciousness finally.  If you really go into that consciousness, in my opinion, it will take you to the height of transcending everything. Otherwise, you are simply into an imagination or mental projection.  The manifestation level has to happen.  Technologically, the three things, stages, that I talk – your mind has the ability to be creative, that is what is known as is able to imagine.  That is to be considered an amazing quality, not an ordinary thing.  When we use the word ‘imagination’ it appears to be “O, that’s all, imagination.”  No, not simply, that’s not.  Vashista talks, “Based on this imagination technology only, the entire creation has happened, appearance of the universe has happened.”  That’s what they talk.  

Like the appearance of the dream happens, it’s all the imagination only but yet it appears so real.  So, when this mind goes to a mental projection level, means you fall in love with Krishna, you try to remember Krishna.  In twenty-four hours how much you can remember Krishna, it depends on that.  Not that simply one day you go and do an aarathi with a camphor and then you forget and keep drinking alcohol.  That is not the Krishna consciousness.  At all times you should not be able to forget Krishna, wherever you are, whatever you are doing.  That is the highest way of devotional path. That automatically will take you to mental projection level and manifestation level and it will make you transcend also.  Some of the great souls 300, 400 years ago, the bhakti movement that has happened, Soordas, Mirabai, Tulsidas, so many saints of the southern part of India also has happened.  They were all in the bhakti marga of that supreme consciousness and by the end of time definitely they transcended everything and merged with the Divinity.  So, this is what I can give as my opinion by looking into their life and the teachings or their behavior in what way they had done.  For them, apart from their own deity nothing else was important, nothing else was significant at all.  So, one has to go to that level.  

   So, sometimes what these people insist, they will become narrow-minded.  They have argued with me also, “You should come and become a devotee of our Krishna.”  “What do you mean ‘of your Krishna’, where is your Krishna?  He is everywhere.  If He is everywhere, the name that I am taking of Shiva also must be your Krishna only, right?  You are taking it in the name of Krishna, I am taking it in the name of Shiva.  So, we both are not different.  We both are the same.”  He was puzzled for a while, but he didn’t agree, “No, no, not taking Shiva is not the thing.  You must take in the name of Krishna only.”  “So, you are limiting Krishna only to that Krishna.  If he is limited to Krishna, he cannot be Krishna”, I said.  This mathematics he couldn’t understand.  He simply went away afterwards; like that.  So, if the non-duality of God is everywhere, in everything, as everything, how can there be a difference between Shiva and Krishna?  You cannot accept only Krishna and reject Shiva.  That means you are rejecting God’s existence in that name. Get it?  

Question:   What books would Babaji recommend to people from the West?

Babaji Maharaj:   If you are interested in total Self-realization and go through the meditation path, the commentaries that I have written, Viveka Choodamani, Ashtavakra Samhita, they are the best books. Just a blunt and slapping way they have told in those days, those great teachers. And Yoga Vashista, of course.  These are the best books which can give you an insight of what you are supposed to achieve, what the truth is also. 

Question:   For learning Advaita, would Babaji recommend Bhagavad Gita, Tattva Loka and Brahma Sutras?

Babaji Maharaj:   That is a little bit too much of a dose to understand for Westerners.  When I have written commentary means, it has the present-day terminologies, they can easily make out what the book is trying to tell.  So, that is why I recommended that one.  Otherwise, if they try to go to the Sanskrit terminologies you will try to memorize, memorize, but nothing occurs to the mind as to what they are trying to tell.  Brahman, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnipotent, omnipresent, Brahman – these things you go on reading, it doesn’t come to the mind what it is, what is it that they are trying to tell.  So, that’s why.  Like we were talking of the Krishna consciousness, Krishna or Shiva.  If they argue only Krishna, they measure the space, “This is all the space.  Space is in-between both of my hands.  I insist this is space.  You accept this as the space.”  How can that be?  Space is everywhere.  So, that type of thing, difficult to understand through books.  Read these books and through that they have to meditate also.  

Question:   Because it is very hard for people of this modern age to meditate, they say that all you need to do is take the name of Krishna and you will achieve peace.

Babaji Maharaj:   Actually, if you have to take Krishna’s name, your mind has to be fully there, then only you will be benefited. That again is the most difficult.  Otherwise, it would have been so easy for the people of the world to become realized.  Bhakti also is not as easy as people are thinking.  Many times we Indians misunderstand what bhakti means.  If we simply take “Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna” and keep drinking the wine expecting Krishna will give to us; it does not happen like that.  You have to be like that.  So, if you become realized, then there won’t be narrow-mindedness.  Whatever is possible for you, you do that one.  That is what Swamiji, when He did meditation, He said “If I have done, you can also do it.  All that is needed is you have to be determined.”  So, as the ages have passed, humans have become more and more weak, more and more weak.  Now they want everything in a package.  

Question:   Babaji always had gnana and bhakti.  Could Babaji have been Self-realized before tapas? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, this is a significant question.  Probably what happened – actually, when I met Swamiji and after two or three years I went,  until then, I did not have any idea of doing tapas.  When I went and reached Dehradun Ashram, Swamiji had placed an old lady there, a mataji, and said to her “A young boy is coming.  He does not know anything about the Ashram.  Until he learns everything you stay here.”  She was from South India only.  Then at that time in January of 1974, a young boy of twenty-three years had sat for tapas in Anantapur.  She used to talk about that thing.  “So, he has sat for tapas; now it is going to be one year very soon and he will be a yogi.  He will become Self-realized.  Then he will serve Swamiji.”  All these things.  When I sat down, went on hearing that story, so that started charging in my mind, revolving.  So, then I used to pray, “It might be a good idea to do tapas also.  So, then we can do tapas, become a yogi and then serve my Guru, then spread His message everywhere.  That type of resolution started coming.  Probably this triggered and switched on to eventually to do that small amount of tapas.  As a formality it became needed, just to tell the world.  Because before that whatever I was achieving and doing, the world did not notice.  World noticed only when a beard and the matted hair came.  That is what it is.  Until then they had not.  So, ask this question to Ambaji.  Ambaji tells “Before also Babaji was like that.  He just needed to take one step, that was all, to transform so that He could become a teacher.”  That was what it is.  So, probably that made me to go for tapas also.

And it will be interesting; after that, what happened, in two or three years in ‘77 I happened to see him [the young boy] also.  I got a chance to go to Anantapur with Swamiji once, and he was still there.  After that his mind started getting totally disturbed.  When Swamiji was in Dehradun, he used to write letters that he wants to go and get married and devatas are all disturbing him.  They are threatening him, “You must get married.  How come?  You cannot remain in celibacy, this is not possible.”  He used to write all in the language, a lot of private things he used to write.  So, I read this to Swamiji and Swamiji was slightly worried, “He is becoming disturbed, but it should be all right.  Let us see.  All he needs is that he should become determined.”  But by the beginning of 1978, fourth year, he started getting up and running away.  And the manager who was looking after Anantapur Ashram, if anybody had offered money, if he had come to collect it then this Swamiji used to catch hold of him and tell “This money is mine.  You leave it here.”  Then Swamiji used to advise “You just do tapas.  Why do you bother about these things?  They will take care of things.”  So, then he used to threaten that manager, “If you come again into my room to take the money I will turn you into a goat.”  So, he felt very scared.  He telephoned Swamiji.  I was in Bangalore.  “Swamiji, he is telling me he will turn me into a goat.  Swamiji told, “Hey, nobody can turn you into your goat, nothing will happen.  He is simply threatening.  That is all.  Don’t worry.  You just do your duty.  You are a manager; you just do your duty.  Tell that Swamiji has told you like that.”  So, these things were happening.  He was disturbed.  So, by then his father was also disturbing; he wanted his son to go back, “He is my only son.  I want him to come back and go do the business.  He has to come.”  Then his father also passed away.  Then he went to the crematorium and put fire to his father’s body, but Swamiji was unhappy.  “During tapas he shouldn’t have got up.  He doesn’t know this thing.  He should have simply blessed by asking them to bring the body if necessary, but he shouldn’t have.”  Then he started getting up and running away.  So people used to bring him back. Once Swamiji also visited.  Then Swamiji sent me and another boy from Bangalore to go and advise him, “This is a matter of self-respect.  You see, you will become a yogi after five years.  The world will honor you so much.  You will be able to carry on Swamiji’s mission so well.”

  So, we all spoke to him, but he didn’t agree.  He wanted to go out. Then finally in ‘78, latter part of ‘78, Swamiji allowed him.  Swamiji tried to bring him to Bangalore also so that he could continue, but he was adamant, and he used to run away, run away.  Then finally Swamiji allowed him to go away.  So, he got married and he lived, and I saw him after ‘78 in 1994 when my Guru had dropped the physical body.  He recognized me, he had become black and all such thing.  He came to me.  He appreciated me at that time. “You could remain in celibacy like a brahmachari”, he said, “but I could not do that one.  I lost the chance to become a yogi.  Maybe I will have to come back again in some other life and do this thing.”  So, like that he was talking.  I just smiled, I didn’t know what to say to him because Swamiji had passed away, His body was there.  That was the last time I saw him.  

So, like this, tapas is not an easy thing.  Probably, he was not ready to go to tapas.  What I heard was just before going to tapas he used to go to trance a lot of times and he used to demand to Swamiji “You give me mine, you give me mine.”  What ‘mine’ he didn’t tell.  Swamiji also used to keep quiet.  Then in January of 1974 some devotees were there when he went to trance.  They asked “Do you want to do tapas?  If you want to do tapas go and sit down.”  Probably they all encouraged and encouraged and forced, then he went and sat.  So, the matter spread like a wildfire that he has been made to sit for tapas; he has gone for tapas, everybody spread that one.  But probably, mentally, he was not yet ready for that.  His determination was not there.  So, then after three-four years, he went away.   

When this happened a little bit in my mind also, slight disturbance was there.  In 1978 on my birthday, 20^th September I was in Bangalore.  Early morning… one day before  – a young girl used to come, she had become fond of me, “bhaiya, bhaiya”, she used to be sitting with me.  When she came to know that it was my birthday, she brought a Cadbury’s chocolate and gave it to me as a gift.  Next day, early morning, 3:30 AM, I took milk to Swamiji’s room in Bangalore and gave it to Him.  Then I gave this chocolate also.  “Swamiji, that young girl gave this to me as a gift for my birthday.”  So, Swamiji bit half of it and gave me other half to eat, then I ate the chocolate.  Then I gave a piece of vibhuti to Swamiji’s hand, “You please bless me.”  Swamiji said “What do you need this vibhuti for?”  A bit scared, I said, “I want to do tapas.”  “Hey, do you think this vibhuti will make you to sit for tapas, idiot?”  Swamiji perhaps was testing my faith.  I told “I have faith.  You bless and give me.”  “Hey, look if you do tapas now, you will become arrogant and egoistic.  You will go away from me.  It’s up to you.  You may get the Self-realization, you may not get.”  So, then I said “No, I want to be with Swamiji.  I don’t need tapas.  No need, it’s okay.  I am like this, ordinary only, alright.  I’m happy to keep dusting Your room and that is fine for me.”  “Ah, don’t worry. When the time is right, at that time even if you don’t want, you will go into tapas.  That time will come.”  So, from ’78, sixteen years later in 1994, finally that time came, and the vision came.  By then I was ready.  Because Swamiji had passed away physically, there was nothing else for me to attract. So, easily I went to tapas and those five years were very easy, simple for me. Because already I was used to doing the long meditations, mind was quiet for everything, I was ready, nothing else attracted me, actually.  So, that was how that tapas happened, finally, and here I am in front of you all.  

Question:   Is it destiny which determines when someone will go into tapas?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, this destiny is a very peculiar thing.  So, the world may discuss – once it has happened, then only we have to recognize it as “Perhaps that was the destiny.”  Before that, if we try to discuss destiny it can be confusing.  You all might ask “Why is it not in our destiny to do tapas?  How come that You have been made to sit?”, and you will again raise this topic that “God discriminated that He made You to sit for tapas, He did not make Clifford to sit for tapas.  He didn’t give me that destiny”, you will ask.  So, this is an inexplicable thing.  It’s a matter of time.  A consciousness, soul has come out, but every soul definitely will go back to the Self.  Like Purandara Dasa sings “He will protect and take back every soul.  Don’t get panicked.  Have peace.”  Like that he sings in his songs.  That is the thing.  It’s a matter of time.  

And another thing, as we talk of destiny, destiny is working for everyone.  That opportunity comes for everyone in front of you.  Now all of you are fortunately destined to sit with a yogi and listen to Him.  If it clicks, then you can become Self-realized, you can go to tapas also, but if you are not yet ready it will take time.  So, that is how destiny works.  So, for me, perhaps I was ready, though quietly I was preparing, I never showed anything.  Nobody could make out.  I was just washing utensils in the Ashram.  That’s why one royal lady commented at the fifth year of my tapas when she came,  “All those people about whom the naadi has been written as great saints they were in their previous life, they are all getting beaten up and alcoholists, and nobody had told anything about Seenu Baba and Seenu Baba has become a yogi.  See the wonder”, she said.  Because my horoscope was never shown to any naadi person.  A naadi person; this is another superstitious thing, unnecessarily listening to our previous glories, we just try to live in that hallucination.  We don’t want to do anything in the present.  Doing karma, effort is important.  You all put effort.  You all put effort.  Try to understand the technique, then your destiny will blossom.  

Question:   Would tapas look the same for each person or would it be different?

Babaji Maharaj:   It can be different experiences depending on their attitudes, acquired habits.  To some, not necessary there should be any vision of God or any such thing at all, no need.  To some it may come.  So, depending on the resolutions, mental attitude, the experiences on the path may vary from person to person, but when they go to samadhi, the final goal is the same; they will transcend everything and then go to that goal.

Question:   Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa did a variety of practices.  Did all that count as tapas?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, it is tapas.  He wanted to show to this world and wanted to see that all religions are equal what people are talking.  It occurred to Him and He did.  Collectively He did all the tapas, finally.  Whereas Ramana Maharishi, simply He did and He just spoke of “Who am I” and nothing else.  

Question:   Can Babaji talk about some experiences that happened to Babaji during tapas?

Babaji Maharaj:   That’s what I have written ‘In His Master’s Grace.’  It’s all there.  Such visions came and guidance came; certain things all happened.  But finally, I have tried to tell everything is finally to be considered as a hallucination or egoistic thing.  The final merger and the quietening is the real experience.  

Question:   Where is the balance between serving others and practicing meditation to achieve Self-realization?  For instance Mother Teresa would not have been able to help others if she was mostly in meditation.

Babaji Maharaj:   When you meditate, when your mind becomes purified, you will gain the ability to consider about others – consideration to others.  So, you will feel that one.  So, that happens always.  One opinion, talking about Mother Teresa, she was a saint, definitely; she did wonderful work.  But not necessary that everybody in the Missionaries of Charity or anybody should be of that high level.  Some stories we get that children are abused also.  These things all happen.  So, if one does sadhana… She was of a exalted purified state of mind, probably.  That’s why she could do such great charitable work.  So, if one meditates and the mind becomes purified, you can do better work in a more mature way.  Even as an individual also, you will be more considerate to others.  It is possible if all humanity works like that one.  So, such abuse will never happen to anybody at all.  All conflicts can come to an end.

End of Session