0:00 Intro
0:24 What is wisdom and how can we acquire it?
1:55 How would wisdom be different from knowledge?
2:53 Is wisdom all about finding peace and contentment?
4:30 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 1 – change is inherent in the forms that exist.
5:53 Realising the impermanence of everything.
6:58 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 2 – there is no ‘other’ to be attached to.
9:13 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 3 – neither desiring anything nor grieving the loss of anything.
11:41 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 4 – one is free who sees that joy and pain, birth and death arise simply as a result of previous actions.
16:00 When you meditate and become quiet you will be able to see a higher consciousness power working in the running of everything.
20:35 Ultimately, do you have to rise above all imaginations to be at peace?
21:35 Is the law of karma directing the manifest existence?
22:35 Within the mind, you have to rise beyond action?
23:35 Parabrahman, the Divinity beyond imaginations.
27:23 To have peace, either surrender to the fact that it is all god’s wishes or if you have desires, put in efforts and accept the results as they come.
33:12 “You undertake actions due to what comes to the mind, when the results come also, you are helpless and you have to accept.”
40:56 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 5 – Suffering in the world is born only in the mind’s imagination.
45:44 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 6 – “I am not this body, nor is this body mine, I am pure consciousness.. ..resting in that state of oneness”
51:03 Is it correct to say that truth of existence is always present, only the illusion that I am an individual entity disappears?
51:30 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 7 – “I am All, from the creator down to the blade of grass. The one who knows this rests free of imaginations, pure, at peace.”
53:28 Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11, verse 8 – “That one who sees that this whole manifold created universe is just imaginations, then knows themselves as that self-existent pure consciousness, utterly free from desires and attains peace.”
55:23 Is it the thoughts that make the mind impure or the attachment to the thoughts?
55:33 Should we contemplate and mentally think about how we are not this body, but this pure consciousness?
1:00:49 We have to get rid of the thoughts and to get rid of the thoughts we have to dis-engage from thinking?

Ashtavakra Gita, Chapter 11 – “Wisdom” | In Quest of Truth – Q&A with Babaji, No.235
Recorded on 8 June 2025 with US participants

Question:

This chapter 11 is titled “Wisdom”. So before getting into the verses – it’s got nine verses broken into two sections, one of four verses and one of five verses –  would you give us your opinion on what wisdom is and how we can acquire wisdom?

Shri Babaji:

Wisdom, when you apply discrimination power, like what is good and what is bad, what is the real and what is the unreal, when we have to achieve, what is the highest that we can achieve, after which there wouldn’t be anything else to achieve? So, this type of using the brain by application of the mind is the wisdom. Thinking in the right direction, in my opinion, is the wisdom. You are able to think in the right direction, understand the situation, understanding impermanence of the world. So, these are the application of wisdom that enables you to know the truth that is surrounding the appearance of this universe and our life in this universe, our own physical body. So, when we try to know the truth, that can be considered as application of wisdom.

Question:

How would wisdom be different from knowledge? Of course, wisdom is knowledge, I suppose, but not all knowledge is wisdom.

Shri Babaji:

In my talks, sometimes I have mentioned, a knowledge means how to shoot a gun, but it is wisdom which makes a person, gives the sanity or insanity of when to shoot and when not to shoot, where to shoot. Like these type of things, thinking is the wisdom. They can be poles apart, knowledge and wisdom, my opinion. So, knowledge just gives you what to do, how to do it. When to do is the application of wisdom. 

Question:

It seems like in context of these readings about the highest wisdom of the Self, that wisdom has to do with finding peace and contentment.

Shri Babaji:

Yes. Apart from peace and contentment, a secure existence of ours. Generally, people tend to consider the body as themselves, with a name, with a personality, with a status, all these things. But we all know, the whole world knows that the body is not permanent. Then the question arises, are we permanent or are we also an impermanent existence? What is the truth? Is there anything that exists always beyond the birth and death of the physical body? So, that is how the wisdom application happens. Then you try to know your real Self, how you exist as the eternal entity, is there any sense. By observing, we should be able to make out and know, “Yeah, this is not disappearing, this is not going to disappear, because this never appeared.” That type of wisdom application can help you. The practice of meditation can give you such wisdom.

Question:

Chapter 11 wisdom, Verse 1. “One who clearly realizes that change is inherent in the forms which exist, as is their eventual dissolution, becomes settled, at ease, beyond pain, easily resting in peace.”

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, that’s the application of wisdom. When we get to see the entire universe, including our own physical body is subject to change, is in transition always. It doesn’t stay in one form, one type of nature always. So, it is there and it will not be there. It can disappear. It can lose its existence. Every item of matter may have its own time. A human body has 80 years, 90 years, 100 years, or whatever it is. The mountain may have its own time. Earth may have its own time limit, but still, that time limit will be over – one time it comes. So, this understanding is the wisdom. Visualizing that which is in front of us, that this is not going to be there at all times.

Question:

Yeah, Baba, I’ve kind of summarized each of these a little bit, and it’s basically change is inherent in all forms, both mental and material, as is their eventual dissolution. So realizing the impermanence of everything.

Shri Babaji:

Mind also, you see, doesn’t stop with one character or one story, one type of thing. It keeps changing, keeps changing its script, stories and the script line. Everything it keeps changing, keeps playing within, different, different. After some time, it becomes bored or tired and then creates a new story within itself. 

Nothing is permanent. In the same way, this world also is not permanent. The impermanence is what needs to be understood. Understanding is what is the application of wisdom. That’s the power of discrimination. Wisdom gives the power of discrimination.

Question:

Thank you Baba. Verse 2. “One who clearly understands all this universe is the illusory creation of That and there is no ‘other’, for such a one, all desires dissolve away, for there is no ’other’ to be attached to.

Shri Babaji:

See, even if we see that which is in front of us, the clue is mind. Whatever has come out of the mind will dissolve into the mind. It doesn’t stay as one picture, one thought all the time, it keeps changing. In the same way, it is in front of us, this world also keeps changing. It doesn’t stay in one way. Today doesn’t stay as today all the time. Tomorrow will become today and today will become yesterday. Like that, it always keeps changing. That is how we understand that which is surrounding [us].

So, when we understand this is all impermanent, it’s not going to give us a permanent happiness, that’s when we try to look for a permanent happiness. We understood, even at a very young age, that the entire universe and our own physical body is impermanent. So, when they are impermanent, how can they give a permanent happiness or peace? So, we must try to look for a permanent entity which will always be there. Only such a thing can give us a permanent happiness. It should have that capacity. If it itself is not permanent, how can it give us permanent happiness? If today it is the king, the king may make me Prime Minister, but if the king himself goes away, and some other king comes, he may not like me. He may make somebody else as his Prime Minister. Nothing is permanent, like that you think. So, that is the application of wisdom and understanding the nature of the appearance of this world.

Question:

Verse 3. “One who clearly knows fortune and misfortune come and go in their own time as the result of past actions, settles forever contented with their senses controlled, neither desiring anything nor grieving the loss of anything.

Shri Babaji:

A wise man understands nothing is permanent. Today, it is there, tomorrow it may not be there, and once it was not there, something happened in the life. So, all these things are impermanent. If there is happiness, unhappiness also follows. If there is unhappiness, happiness also follows. This understanding comes. After a long living in this world, when we look back, the very peace and contentment we are looking for seems to be so elusive because of the changing nature of the world. It keeps changing. It keeps changing.

So, the one who can understand this will not go after the desires, because that gives unhappiness again. This is what the wise understand. Those who cannot understand would not have applied wisdom. If they are wise, anybody can understand this fact. So, then they look for, they have to look for a permanent happiness. Happiness is an existence-right I would tell. It is for everybody. Everybody has a right to be happy, but you have to find the right path. Like as Ramana Maharishi said, knowingly or unknowingly, everybody is looking for happiness, but if the path is not right, they won’t get that. So, they need to tread the right path, understanding, then they will get the permanent. That means we have to discriminate and understand only a permanent entity has the capacity to give a permanent happiness. A temporary entity can give only a temporary entity.

Question:

Verse 4. “One who clearly sees joy and pain, birth and death arise simply in their own time as a result of previous actions, perform their actions in the world freely without attachment to goals or results. Free.

Shri Babaji:

This again we all keep discussing, having a desire itself is not a problem. You can have a desire – then you have to put an effort. So whatever effort you put, the future of that effort will be the result, either of good or bad, happiness or unhappiness. So, when the happiness or unhappiness comes, then we should not brood— simply accept it. A certain thing should not be giving us unhappiness if we remain contented at all times. Means our happiness must not depend on the matter of this world, because it is impermanent. But without any of this if we remain contented — accept the results. Acceptance, accept as it comes. Today it has happened, that’s okay. Tomorrow, it has not happened, it’s okay, no problem. Today, somebody has been our friend. Tomorrow, that friend abuses and goes away, no problem. That is the nature of that person. It is a part of the life. This was written in the script. This was to happen, a drama. When you think like that, that loses its effect on your mind. Your mind remains at peace without bothering about the incident or the happening, because we don’t depend on the happenings for our happiness.

So that is how a wise man would remain when one realizes the Self. When one realizes the impermanence of this world also, that person would be able to. Then he accepts the results as it comes. Every scripture, every teacher has told this only. Even Bhagavad Gita talks, you have a right to put in effort that is no problem. Having a desire is no problem. But when the result comes, you have to accept it, whether you like or don’t like it. It cannot be like that one. You don’t like, you become unhappy. You like, you become happy. But if your happiness is going to depend on your liking and not liking a certain thing, then you are depending on that, you become a slave to that one. But your happiness shall not depend on anything that is happening or not happening. It happens, you are happy. It doesn’t happen, you are happy. Because you don’t depend on the happening or unhappening of the things in this world. So, such a one is wise who will not depend on anything for happiness, is always in supreme peace.

Question:

Baba, I’m going to read some comments from your commentary, and if you’d like, you could make comment. “Once this impermanence of the universe is realized, it’s easy to go for Self Realization. You become detached.” In my own experience, and I’m sure a lot of people with us today, as I’ve had more experiences and gotten older, nothing has lasted. I’ve had a lot of good times. I’ve had bad times. But as you meditate more and more, you become aware of the consciousness of existence which is present all the time. You begin to identify more with that and there is an underlying peace that comes. 

When you say in the text, in the commentary, “When you meditate and become quiet, you will be able to see a higher consciousness power working in the running of everything”. Would you explain what that means?

Shri Babaji:

Whatever you create within your mind, your mind is more powerful than what it has created within itself. But your mind cannot handle this world. This universe has been created by a much higher potency consciousness. Here we call it ‘mind’, “in our mind”. But that is the higher consciousness which would have created this world. So that’s how this world is going on. Unnecessarily, we go into a head on collision with this world. We want the entire world to run according to our wishes. Suppose somebody thinks, “Oh, if only I can create this world. I can create only the way I want.” Then that again comes to be known as selfishness. You have some ideas, and you want the world to happen according to that. So, the day you can create, you do that one, try it in your mind first, whether you can control your mind when you can create all the things the way you want, ideas – the mind doesn’t stop. Mind creates even all such things that you don’t like to have in your mind. So you lose control, that is the power of consciousness, power of illusion that happens.

So, the divine, when we talk of the higher consciousness creating this world, that is higher, we don’t talk of it as the mind. Because this universe is happening due to that consciousness, but that consciousness has not willed or wished, “Let this happen like this, let this happen like this” – it doesn’t happen like that. Even for one day you get the power to create and handle this entire world, and you try to change  the way you want, you will go mad. How many things? What all are you going to change? “Let this happen like this. Let this happen like this. Let this happen like this.” One you try to change, ten other would have cropped up, ten other would have cropped up. Always in this world, you see, you try to sort out one problem, then ten crop up. It is always there. So, then you will hold your ears and surrender to God, “I cannot handle this world, you handle, you have created, it is up to you.”

So this is how it will happen actually. Even if you sit and keep thinking “The world should have been like this, the world should have been like this, the world should have been like this”, one time will come, you will be tired. “How far we are going to do this one?” In your life also, sometimes what happens, you might have come across injustice, or wrong, bad people coming into your life. Then you would think that, “If only I had the power, I would have changed that person, or I would have taken revenge, or something.” Like that, problem after problem, problem after problem keeps coming in your life. How far you are going to imagine? Then one day you will give up, thinking “This doesn’t seem to be stopping anywhere. Every other person is behaving like this.” Then you are tired.

So, these things you can realize when you practice meditation and acceptance comes. Then only you don’t get involved, then only you get peace. Means, mentally when you don’t get involved, you get peace. Otherwise you will be imagining, “This is how the things have to happen. This is how things have to happen. God has to come like this. God has to do this for me. God has to do that for me.” And you don’t know what Self Realization is. Then you will be imagining in your own way, “These things have to happen.” So, all such things need not happen at all for Realization. All that is needed, you simply become quiet in the mind and you are there.

Question:

So ultimately, you have to rise above all that to be at peace.

Shri Babaji:

Yes, you have to rise above all those things, stop thinking, drop all ideas; who has created this world and what you are going to do with this world. Whatever you think is right, you try to influence people. Nobody will listen to you. Everybody will be there. Wars continue, wars continue. Associations happen, organizations come into existence, then wars happen, wars happen. The system collapses. Nobody wants to do it. Nobody wants to see the justice. People all behave diplomatically or for other reasons only. Politically motivated things keep happening, keep happening. This is a never-ending headache, so you have to give up this. Enough is enough!

Question:

Baba, is the law of karma directing the manifest existence?

Shri Babaji:

Law of Karma will be happening. Finally, you will realize you have to give up all karmas in the mind. Then only you have peace. Otherwise it is never ending, and it’s very difficult to balance also. Suppose, for example, you are undergoing some trouble, somebody else is troubling you, you wonder what will happen to this man in the next life, he will undergo. Then that man tells, “Last birth I underwent this trouble, that’s why I am troubling this person now.” So, it’s only logic is the imagination.

Question:

But within the mind and manifest world, karma, the action and reaction, it’s always going to be in the washing machine. You have to rise beyond action.

Shri Babaji:

Actions, beyond, and just take care that your mind doesn’t get involved. I keep telling the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva concept. When they created, they did not get involved with the creation. That’s why they remained as divine. If they had got involved, then their mind would have become corrupted. Consciousness would have become corrupted. Those who think that “I would like to create the way I want” — if you start thinking like that, then the mind would become corrupted. It will become selfish. Again, you won’t be able to do justice.

Question:

Baba, you mentioned Parabrahman in the text here, and you describe it, the Parabrahman, as “divinity beyond imaginations. The Divinity is not a separate personality who has written stories for people to undergo happiness and unhappiness.” You’ve kind of commented on that already, but could you say a little bit more about that? 

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, many times people imagine when they think about God. That is one reason since a long time, I try to mention only the word of ‘Divinity’, not as ‘God’, because when we mention the word of ‘God’, people tend to imagine a personality. God is a person, a type of personality, who would be doing everything, playing this world, or creating this world, thinking about what, so all this. But that is not the truth, actually. So, for that I have told, “This universe is happening due to Divinity, but not according to the wishes of the Divine.” There is no such mind or thinking or wishes in Divinity. Simply due to the presence of the Divinity this is happening. 

If we look into our mind also, if we lose attachment to whatever has been created in the mind. Due to the energy and consciousness presence in the mind, this is happening in the mind – then also we lose interest, and we lose attachment to whatever is happening in our mind. Then whatever is happening also disappears. Nothing will be there. Only one single Self exists. So, that is how we have to give up attachment. That is why we are miserable. The Divine has no attachment. The Divine is supremely peaceful. Divine has not done anything wrong to anyone. It is only we, by our visualization, by our accepting – it is the mind which is suffering actually. One thing may be good for one person. The same thing could be very bad for another person. Sitting in this Zoom class with a yogi could be very interesting for some people. For some people, this could be very miserable if they don’t like it, if they don’t like a yogi, if they don’t like these meditation sessions. If they start thinking “This meditation is not going to give me a million dollars, why should I be sitting for meditation? This is useless.” Another might think like that. So for them, it becomes so miserable to come to these zoom classes and they don’t come finally. Another might think “My experience of Self Realization is that my head is going round and round and round and round, this is happening, some gods are coming, some things are happening. If such a thing doesn’t happen, then why should I come to Zoom?” That is all their imagination for either God or for Realization.

That’s why Swamiji used to tell, when you sit for meditation, do not imagine what Self Realization means, because whatever you imagine, the truth could be something else. Experience the truth, and then you will know about your real Self, what it is.

Question:

Thank you. That’s nice, Baba. So you say here, “What’s the cause of happiness and unhappiness in this world? Some say everything is done by the Divine, and some say due to our own past actions” – these are two things you already mentioned. “Mental acceptance is what is necessary. If you become quiet mentally and surrender to the fact that it’s all God’s wishes, then you have peace and will accept the things as they happen. If you have desires, it’s no problem. You can put in your efforts and accept the results as they come. Then you have peace, either way.”

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, that’s why we tell, only when you have acceptance, because there is no universal guarantee that all your efforts and your expectations will bring the same type of results as expected by you. You might be putting in best efforts. You might remain focused also, but sometimes the results may go against your expectations. If you don’t accept, you will lose peace. You will be frustrated, disappointed. Anything can happen. You can go into a depression also. When they miss something only people go into a depression. If they don’t miss anything, there is no depression at all. This is what happens.

So if the result we accept, “Okay, this was supposed to happen” — that’s why the idea of destiny has been given. “Oh, you were supposed to undergo. You were destined to undergo this problem. This was to happen, so accept it.” ‘Destined to undergo’ means accept it without brooding, you are destined to undergo. That is the idea of telling destiny. So then we accept and retire to whatever result has come. Then only we have peace. “Okay, calm down. It’s okay, calm down. This was to happen. It’s all right. Finished.” Then the issue is no more an issue. The problem is no more a problem. You just have to face it.

This type of practice may not be as easy as we talk, but slowly if you undertake spiritual exercises like meditation etc, daily on a regular basis – a disciplined approach should be there by practicing, and then you practice this also. Reason it out, at least apply your wisdom. When the result has come, there is nothing that you can do once it has come. It has come. Once this body has attained 70 years age, it has attained 70 years age. If I keep banging my head, “I want to be 22 years old,” it won’t happen. I have to accept it graciously. When you accept graciously, you are a matured, wise person. So that’s what it is. Still you want to be 22 years, 22 years… As the stories have all have come; the story of Yayati. He got cursed and became old quickly. Also a boon was given, if any one of your sons accept [take on] your old age, then you can get back your young age for some time. So then he asks all his children. Then finally, Dhruva accepts. “Father, I am ready.” He was already into vairagya, total detachment of the world. He was a great devotional boy. He simply accepts. “There is no problem. This body is going to become old one day, if it has to happen, let it happen today. I can take your old age. You take my young age, you enjoy.”

Then after a long time going, Yayati realizes one important thing; simply indulgence does not give you satisfaction. “No amount of indulgence has given me satisfaction”, then he comes and takes back the old age from his son and blesses him with all the boons to be young and lead the kingdom again. Somewhat this is briefly the essence of the story, but the essence is this one in context that has been told; realizing the impermanence, realizing simply indulgence itself does not give you satisfaction in this world. It creates more craving, more craving, more craving, and you reach a saturated point where you cannot stop and you cannot have it. You will be miserable. You don’t know what else to do. So then when you sacrifice, you accept the situation graciously, then that gives you such beauty. You will see that beauty at the age of 70 also, it will be so beautiful – when people will call you grandfather and Papa, Baba. It is really gracious. You don’t have to be a young 20-year-old boy all the time, not necessary.

Question:

I have no desire to go back.

Shri Babaji:

[Baba laughs]. Just an example, joking. This is in that context. You always remain contented. At the age of 16 I became old, very old, of an 80 year old; my temperament and mentality was like that. We became detached from the world. So, what will we do at the age of 70? This body is like that.

Question:

Baba, this next line is pretty profound, I think. You say, “You undertake actions due to what comes to your mind. When the results come also you’re helpless and you have to accept.” It’s true, we think we’re in charge of ideas and things that come into our mind, but really ideas and desires just pop into our head, and once they do, you are kind of powerless. If you can, you’ll want to act on them.

Shri Babaji:

Many times, people come with such questions, “How to make a correct decision?” To be precisely factual, there is no such thing called a correct decision. There is no guarantee in this world when you make a judgment or take a decision or put in effort, that thing will bring the same expected things. You may take a decision, but the result might be something else, not as is expected by you. So, what I tell is, if you accept the result, you did not commit any mistake at all. You just took a decision. Whatever you felt was right, you took it. If it didn’t happen, it didn’t happen, that’s it. But if you regret, then it was your mistake. Why did you take a decision at all?

So, it depends on that; if you don’t regret… You trusted somebody and gave them a place on your property, and that somebody wanted to usurp that property, so what to do? You took that decision, we trusted. That person did not behave properly, so it is up to him. It is not my loss. So, like this. The world goes like that. There is no such thing called correct decision. If the thing comes, you take a decision, you have to go. Finally, I tell if you practice meditation, your mind will be more clear. It will overcome confusion at such times because you will lose selfishness, narrow mindedness, and will learn to see a larger cause always. This is what is important – taking a decision or deciding what to do at that moment. If you are selfish, your actions will be narrow minded always.

Like when Draupadi was about to be disrobed, even such great, great people like Bhishma, Dronacharya, anybody, they could not protect her for the single reason that they had taken a vow that “I will listen to only King’s orders.” They could not think, “If I protect this woman, I would be protecting the entire clan. The war could be avoided. Fights could be avoided.” They couldn’t do that one. That’s what Sri Krishna showed. Because Sri Krishna had no personal interest, He had not bound himself to any kingdom or any person. He was a totally free person, just for justice only, for a larger cause. “This woman is in danger, she needs to be protected immediately. That is the first thing, not my personal glory.”

The same thing in the war zone, when the war was about to begin, Arjuna was unable to fight because he was going into depression. Psychologically he got affected. “This is my grandsire, this is my uncle, my Guru, how can I fight with them?” “You have to fight for the Dharma purpose, that is important. So, if you are not going to do it, I will kill this Bhishma.” He [Krishna] takes up the wheel of a chariot and starts going [after Bhishma]. Then Arjuna reminds, “Krishna, you had taken a vow not to take up any weapons at all.” Then Krishna tells, “No problem, I remember, but that is no problem – the world will blame only me, but Dharma will be established, righteousness will be established. Killing those people who have sided with wickedness, that is the purpose. You see, when your mind is clear, you will be able to see a larger cause, and you don’t bother about taking such decisions. Your decisions will not be based on your selfishness. 

When we try to defend the ashram, it was not selfishness for my personal property that I did not want to let go. I know very well I am not going to pack up the ashram and take it with me when I die. Twenty-four hours we will remember. But we wanted to protect that for the coming generations. Swamiji made the ashram for public utility purposes. Devotees, anybody should be able to come, sit and meditate there, if they are interested in spirituality. There is no discrimination. But if it is one person’s house, then that person can stop, “I don’t want these civilians. I want only the army people to come.” If I am an army people person, I will always welcome only such type of people. If I am a royal person, I will welcome only royal types of people, not ordinary people. That’s what Swamiji never wanted. He said, if I sit, anybody should be able to come for my darshan and do meditation. That’s why He made a trust and put the ashram in it. 

So, like that, a yogi will always think of a larger cause. He won’t have any personal interest. “Oh, I have my family people, let the family live here.” He won’t think like that one. He made it a trust. We have done an ashram. We don’t think that only my family or me have to sit there. Whoever is interested in spirituality, whoever believes in my teachings, they are welcome to come, participate in retreats, meditate. If only they are interested to live in the ashram, they can live. A couple of boys are there who are not at all related to me in race, in caste, in blood or anything, but they are like our children. They love me. We love them. They assist me in the ashram work.

I am talking all these things; if your mind is clear, purified, you will take a decision based on a larger cause. There won’t be any selfishness and narrow mindedness in this. See, any such person whose mind is not clear, if you observe in the society also, they will always try to take a decision based on their personal interests, selfishness and narrow mindedness. This is one important criteria that we have to understand here about accepting or taking a decision or how we are going to behave.

Question:

Thank you, Baba. We have these final four verses.  Verse 5. “Those who understand clearly that all suffering in this world is born only of the mind’s imagination become finally free, resting totally in true happiness and peace in all situations, their desires dissolved away.” Baba, probably a lot of people would object or disagree with you saying suffering in the world is born only in my imagination.

Shri Babaji:

What we are trying to tell, I’ll tell one example — situation can be the same, but the person’s attitude… Swamiji used to give an example of a soldier always. A soldier, when he goes to the battlefield – wars are always miserable, it is not going to be a pleasant act, ever. But when it is a soldier, he knows either he will do it or he will die, and then both are equally acceptable for him, so he is never miserable at all with that situation. But if it was a coward who wouldn’t like to die at all, who is scared, he would run away, “My God, this is a miserable condition.” So, this is what we are trying to tell. When a person physically suffers, there is a pain, definitely. But when that pain is in the mind, the mind also suffers, along with the physical suffering. Like if you prick my body, a Yogi’s body will also feel the pain, but how much I am going to feel in my mind is what makes the difference.

I’m not trying to belittle any physical suffering as wrong, as nothing. It is also equally miserable when it happens. Anaesthesia will be required if there is pain, even for a soldier. If his leg is cut and it’s so painful, we all accept that one. Here, the philosophy they are trying to tell, Ashtavakra, even all great masters have told the same. When a monk asked Ramana Maharishi why this world is suffering, He simply said, “Where is the suffering? The suffering is only in the mind.” It may be difficult for ordinary people to understand that sentence, that highest thing, but if you carefully think, there is physical suffering also there. Even a fingernail pains you if it is cut. Anything happens, that pains anybody, but how much pain you are taking it to the mind. One becomes so miserable, they can’t take even pain – for another, the pain is there, but he is courageously facing it. So, this type of things, that’s what is the difference we are trying to tell here in our comments, and what Ashtavakra has told, what other great masters have told.

Question:

that comes down to the ability of the mind to accept it, what’s happening?

Shri Babaji:

Ability, yes, finally, ability.

Question:

To allow.

Shri Babaji:

Yes, yes. Suffering is there, physically also it is to be considered a suffering. But watching that, or when you are undergoing that, how much you are going to suffer mentally. For this, many times psychologically advising also I have told, there is suffering in the world, definitely. But just by worrying about that suffering, you cannot help anybody. But if you don’t worry, if you are courageous, you might be able to help somebody, definitely. Like a doctor goes round the hospital for a treatment, when he gets to see patients, there can be so many miserable conditions, painful situations. But the doctor needs to be courageous. He needs to give courage to the patients also. Instead, if the doctor himself becomes miserable by watching them, then the doctor cannot attend to the patients at all. He Himself will become a patient on the bed. So, this example we have to think. In this context only the masters have told, and we have been trying to elaborately tell in our comments also.

Question:

Verse 6. “I am not this body, nor is this body mine. I am Pure Consciousness. Those who know this neither fret about what’s been done nor what has been left undone, resting in that state of Oneness.”

Shri Babaji:

This is possible when you practically experience only. For that reason only when we try to teach meditation, the instructions that are given, you just have to watch in between eyebrows means you just watch. When thoughts or visions appear, don’t analyze them, don’t get involved with them. Ignore, just keep quiet, then thoughts all will disappear. What remains is the consciousness of existence. This is the most important thing. From that is where the ‘I’ is also arising; your feeling of the ‘I’. See, you always, everybody has this feeling that you exist, but just now you are unaware from where it is arising, that feeling arising. We might simply think, in the mind, or so many imaginations can be there. But whether it is arising because of an imagination or it is naturally there as a reality.

That’s why I have told; in your mind you have millions of thoughts, whereas all thoughts are imaginations, born out of simple imaginations, creativity of the mind. But one thing, the consciousness of your own existence, the ‘I’ is also there, which is a reality and which is not an imagined thought. It has not been imagined by anybody. How you can experience this practically is, you go on meditating in the technical way that we are teaching. Successfully just watch and don’t get involved with any thought or vision, then those thoughts and visions disappear. They dissolve into the mind, they go back because they are simply imagined. Everything can be dissolved, but this consciousness of existence, ‘I’ will always be there, you cannot make that disappear. You concentrate on that. When there is nothing else to focus on, the mind automatically turns its attention to That.

That is what is meditation actually — observing. Then it [mind or attention] gets absorbed also into That but that consciousness does not disappear. That is how ancient sages also determined the Self, the ‘I’ as an eternal entity. Like scientists and astronomers, so many ways people have come to conclusions. Molecules, neutrons, protons, this, that,  when they observed the thing, they tried to name it and understand. In the same way those great giants of spirituality also observed. When they observed only, they said, “This is the eternal entity, that ‘I’ is eternal. It’s not going to die, because this thing has never come into existence.” Its existence is like that. It is there and it is not there.

This meaning of “It is there, it is not there” – I have told, nobody has seen the mind itself with the naked eyes. Everybody recognizes the mind based on the thoughts and visions that are there. Other than that, hardly anybody thinks what the mind itself is. So, when you get to this consciousness of existence also, where the ‘I’ is arising, it would simply appear as space to the naked eyes. Your mind becomes… many might call it empty or blank or anything; it will simply appear as a space. But it is not simply space, it is the consciousness of existence. That’s the nearest clue we can give. That’s where is that Self, that is what is known as Self, yourself, myself, that which we keep calling. “Myself, I am this, that,” like that. It’s a different thing now we have imagined through the body about ourselves, because our consciousness has shifted to the body. Due to brain’s reflections, it catches and registers and believes that to be the reality. So, in meditation, you will be able to reach this one. Then you will understand how [you are] the eternal entity, that you are there. So, you have to reach that by practicing this. Then you will practically experience that thing does not disappear. It is permanently, always there and that is what you are.

Question:

Baba, is it correct to say the truth of existence is always present, only the illusion that I’m an individual entity disappears?

Shri Babaji:

Yes, because that was an imagination, imagined individual self — that disappears. That truth of existence will always be there. Then the I-ness also disappears. The individuality disappears.

Question:

Verse 7. “I am all – from the Creator down to the blade of grass. The one who knows this rests free of imaginations, pure, at peace, beyond attainments or non-attainments.”

Shri Babaji:

See, suppose in your mind you are imagining a sad story, and imagining that sad story you forget that you are imagining, and in your mind you become miserable with that story, you become sad also. But actually just by imagining a sad story, you need not have had to become sad also. But unknown to you, you are imagining a sad story, and you become sad. Now you understand, just by imagination only you have become sad. Actually, there is no sadness there. You have imagined a sadness. So that sadness was nothing but you, because it is within your mind. That’s what Ashtavakra is trying to tell. The one who knows it is ‘I’ only everywhere. That is the Self, Oneness, you see the space – then everything disappears. But this can happen only practically when you practice sadhana, meditation and tapas. Gradually, slowly, slowly you practice. Go on practicing, don’t worry about tapas and don’t go on imagining chakras, pakras, everything. Let it go, finish. Everything is over. Just watch. When you achieve the silence of the mind, you will be able to experience these things practically. And that Truth is the greatest wonder, hair raising, amazing things, as Vasistha tells.

Question:

Verse 8. “That one who sees that this whole manifold created universe is just imagination then knows themselves as that self-existent, Pure Consciousness, utterly free of desires and attains Peace.”

Shri Babaji:

So again, the same thing, when you get rid of all thoughts and visions, still you feel yourself. Relax and sit down anytime you have even two minutes or five minutes — at that time try to feel yourself quietly, without thinking anything. Then you will feel that is such a pure entity. When no thoughts are there, there cannot be any corruption at all. So you would have risen above the dualities. By such a practice also you can meditate. You can feel yourself — the movement of energy and settling down [Babaji mimics the sound of cooling down] peacefully like that one. That will happen. So, that you experience as the purest form.

That is why it is told the yogi’s consciousness is just like the sky. As the sky is pure, the space is pure. Nothing can make it impure. No amount of dust or anything present can make it impure. It cannot touch the space at all. It is in the space, but it cannot touch the space. So, this is the truth, like that. You will realize, you, that ‘I’ also, that Pure Consciousness is also so pure, and the mind becomes so pure when there are no thoughts. Because of thoughts only, mind becomes corrupted, selfishness, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, keeps happening.

Question:

Baba, is it the thoughts that make it impure, or your attachment to the thoughts?

Shri Babaji:

Attachment to the thoughts.

Question:

“Contemplation should be in the direction that the Self is all pervasive. Just like, for every object or character that is in the mind, the mind is all pervasive. Consciousness that is or appears to be in every object of the mind is nothing but the mind. Thus, the character of the mind needs to contemplate and know that it’s not the character or object, but is the all pervasive mind which is pure consciousness. In the same way, we’re not this body, and the body is not ours, we are that pure consciousness which is simply everywhere.” So are you advocating that we contemplate this, that we mentally think about this? Would that help us with our meditation?

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, you can contemplate also. In a simpler way, again, I will try to put this one. Suppose you are one of the micro-speck thoughts which is in your mind. For that mind, the mind is all pervaded simply. When the mind is pure, if that micro-speck thought can try to understand the mind itself, the mind is the purest form. There is no thought, and it is all pervaded. That one single Self exists everywhere. In the same way in this world also, in this body, which is simply a micro speck of the creation, just nothing actually. Even if you see the atlas also, they will simply make an arrow, “our solar system is somewhere there”, when you imagine the galaxies or milky ways and how big they are – how small a thing. So small, ant-like we are sticking onto this earth, boasting and turning our moustache as if I am the greatest hero. We are just nothing though, a micro speck.

Then we try to see this space. For us the space is all pervading, simply all pervading. You travel any amount of distance, you will see the space, space, galaxy, space, galaxy, space. It continues, continues, never ending. Nobody can measure that one; like that it is all pervading. This knowledge you can gain practically when you practice meditation; in samadhi, when you achieve that one. Anybody can achieve this. Simply in a disciplined way, every day you practice getting rid of the thoughts and visions. Don’t get into further imaginations by reading books, by listening to such storytellers called gurus. You have to practice it. You practice getting rid of the thoughts. Just now you are preoccupied with your own thoughts. That’s why you will end up imagining further thoughts instead of getting into the truth. To get to the truth, you have to get rid of the thoughts. Forget about all ideas.

Everything has been symbolically explained by the Masters, whether chakras, whether the kundalini, whether the serpent power. Symbolically, when they have explained, we try to catch hold of that symbol as a reality and forget the actual truth. Like, for example, ‘serpent power’ they used to explain the kundalini. Kundalini is the coiled energy, just like the mind, infinite. The same infinite has gone into the body, which has given us the body as ourselves, as the consciousness. But it is infinite, there is no such serpent. When the mind is concentrated, it would lift the kundalini, also. The ancient masters would have told, “It rises like a serpent.” This ‘like’ word is forgotten; “The serpent rises”, the grammar changes. A serpent rising, or it rises like a serpent – makes so much difference. So, if students don’t hear this properly, the symbolic way of explanations are taken very seriously and everybody starts expressing, “I could feel a serpent moving throughout my body, coming to my head”; like that, one person was explaining. It became so difficult for me to make him understand there is no such serpent, there is no such serpent movement that happens. A consciousness arises just like a serpent – that is totally different. So don’t become victims of imaginations. Try to read thoroughly and practice the meditation to yourself, then only you will be able to experience the truth as it is. Otherwise, one is likely to end up in imaginations unnecessarily. You will not go anywhere near the truth. 

Question:

What you’ve been saying so beautiful, helpful. Just to summarize what you said – we have to get rid of the thoughts we have from our mind. And to get rid of thoughts, we just have to disengage from thinking.

Shri Babaji:

Yes, yes. Just watch. Means, that is what it is, disengage yourself from the thoughts, don’t analyze. This engagement happens by analyzing and making judgments. This has to be stopped. That is what is meditation. The basic idea of meditation, that is what it is, silence. Achieve the silence of the mind, that is important. Then that mind becomes pure consciousness. Its attention turns to itself. It will get absorbed. That is when you experience the truth, that amazing truth which can never be explained, can never be visualized, can never go into this, that; nothing happens. No chakra movement happens, no chakra moving happens, no gods coming, no head randhras, nothing. These are all imaginations. People imagine, the gurus imagine, the students imagine, and they don’t reach anywhere. They are stuck there again. So, silence.


End of Session