0:00 Introduction from Babaji
4:03 What is the natural state of the mind?
8:12 What happens in the mind when Babaji answers a question?
9:56 How can we get control of our mind?
12:39 What is life like for a person with a controlled mind?
15:49 How to function through the day without a mind full of thoughts?
18:42 What is intuition?
20:27 ‘Me and mine’ and the ‘I’ concept
22:04 How to continue sadhana outside meditation
25:00 Tingling sensations in the throat during meditation
26:14 How do we love like Babaji?
31:20 Are our debts to our teachers the reason for our avalanche of thoughts?
37:04 What is it like to do meditation? (asked by a child)
38:17 Why not enjoy the lifetimes of being devoted to god rather than becoming Self-Realized?
42:32 How does the knowledge and wisdom come from the silent mind of a Yogi?
43:54 Where is the awareness knowledge that eliminates the Avidya (ignorance) and Maya (illusion)
48:19 How important is vairagya?

Thus Spake Babaji, Online Q&A, No.46
Recorded on 20 June 2021 with US participants

Babaji: So wonderful to see you all. Today is Father’s Day in America and you know, in Indian culture Father’s place is number two. Who is on the first place? Mother. You know the shloka, ‘Mata, Pita, Guru, Devo Bhavaha’. Mother is on the first place. That is where the child learns the first word, from mother – to walk, to move, to talk, to utter something. So thus, she gives the first culture, first character, all these things. Mother takes care when the child is a very small baby. Swamiji also used to tell, just like a just-born baby needs a mother, one would need the Guru. Well, Father also equally plays a beautiful role. He takes care of the education, character build up. We remember our father, he used to be very careful with whom we mingled, who are my friends he used to inquire, insist that he wanted to know who are my friends, where am I going, with whom am I moving. He used to say, “You must be careful about bad company.” I remember these words from my father today, “You must be careful about bad company. You yourself may be trying to be good-hearted, but if you are in the midst of bad boys, they can influence you, they can brainwash you, they can put you into bad habits. So never, never even once try to be in the midst of such people. The moment you notice something bad in them, give up, go away from them, don’t bother what they are going to think about you.” So that was the care our Father gave us. So, we remember fathers of this world who have taken care of their children, who have given education, who have earned and sacrificed for their children. So, we pay rich tributes to the concept of Father, apart from Mother also.

As I told the shloka, ‘Mata, Pita, Guru, Devo Bhavaha’, look – the Guru comes in the third place, after Mother and Father. What the Guru teaches, when the Guru comes to teach, by then a lot of character would have been built by parents giving such character, such teachings, such handling of their children. That’s why Swamiji used to tell, you might be able to choose your wife and you might be able to choose your husband, but by the time you would think of choosing your parents, you are already born. You must know that in your previous ‘Janma’, life, if you had done good Karma, then you are blessed with such wonderful parents who would be loving, caring and correcting you all the time, they would never pamper you, want you to be as perfect as possible. I would like to remember Swamiji, who was like a great father, a mother, a Guru, God. When He used to scold me terribly, “Take my scoldings, the world cannot scold you. They cannot point out fault in you, I will make you so perfect.”

Questioner No. 1: First thing is, what is the natural state of the mind? Mostly, most people, from the moment they are awake, the mind is busy. It’s imagining, it’s remembering things, planning. Most of those thoughts are probably not really related to accomplishing anything; we’re just flooded with thoughts all day long. So what’s the natural state of the mind? Is it silence?

Babaji: To remain in the quietness, in silence. So that is known as Mahasamadhi; the ultimate stabilized state, quietness, that is the natural state. When it’s into imaginations, it is actually unnatural, and whatever it is imagining, no matter how important to this world, no matter it might be a genius thinking, there is really nothing to accomplish. Because the entire creation and its meaning is just for sake of play, like ‘Punarapi Jananam, Punarapi Maranam’, again and again one is born and again and again death. It appears and it disappears, whether it is the world, universe, milky way, galaxy, any creation, appears and disappears. One time it will all go away, whatever we try to preserve. So that is the natural state should be. That is why recently in the quote also I told, when all thoughts dissolve, all visions dissolve in itself, in that stillness, when the mind is totally still, that is the regaining of pure consciousness form, and that is the form of Divinity, Ultimate Truth. It is totally contented because it doesn’t need anything for its existence and thus it doesn’t have any desire. So, when there is an imagination in the mind, it is to be considered a desire. You want that to happen, whereas it’s not possible; it can happen only in the imagination of the mind. So that is unnatural. So to gain this natural habitat back of the pure consciousness, the practice of meditation is taught with the technique, ‘Just to watch’.

When you watch using the eyeballs, and slowly as the mind’s thoughts and visions dissolve, all its imagination goes away, it stops watching, because it’s not watching anything in the beginning also. Though it is taking the help of the eyeballs, here it’s important to notice, eyeballs are helpful to bring the mind into single pointedness and it can hold. But it cannot make the mind to watch the eyeballs. Through the eyeballs only mind has to watch some other object. It will not watch the eyeballs except in a mirror. So thus, here using this technique, mind slowly becomes quiet, regains its original form, format, and becomes quiet without getting bothered by the sensory organs, including the eyeballs.

Same Questioner: Thank you, Baba. So my understanding is that once Self-Realization is attained, or you become a Yogi, that the mind really isn’t operating all the time. It’s mostly into stillness.

Babaji: Yes.

Same Questioner: Now, when we ask you a question, does the mind just spontaneously jump into action, and then go back into silence?

Babaji: What I can see here is, a total imagination doesn’t crop up. It’s simply like, ‘appears and disappears’ type. So, when I answer, it’s just as if it appears, but yet simply the answer is being given, but I don’t see it on the screen of the mind, any such written things, or any such imagination. So, after that also the mind remains quiet. It’s always quiet. That’s what mechanically the body talks through the sensory organ, through the mouth, and it answers. Only when I read it, if somebody records or writes, then if I listen to such an answer, if I read such an answer, it’s really, sometimes – not to boast, nothing to boast about me, there is no me at all, it’s coming from the source – it’s amazing sometimes for me, about the truth that has come out. So it is from the Divinity, from the Divine Guru.

Same Questioner: Thank You, Baba. I started thinking about this. You and Swamiji both emphasized the need of controlling the mind. And when I first heard that, probably like most people, we think we control our mind. We tell ourselves to get up, we make choices in what we want to eat, where we want to go, what we’re going to do. So we feel like we are in control of the mind until you try to stop the mind. And then you realize that you can’t, or it’s very difficult. And that can be either meditation for fifteen seconds and your mind is off in thoughts, or it could be ruminating which is a big problem for many people. Ruminating is when you can’t stop thinking about something, somebody says something, or maybe you have a concern or a worry, and you can’t stop the mind. It just plays, instead of one time or two times, it plays a thousand times, and you can’t stop it. So how can we get control of our mind and what would life be like for a person with a controlled mind?

Babaji: You see, finally the mind itself has to realize and stop thinking, analyzing and making a judgment. No other third party is there which will watch the thoughts and make it to disappear. I remember Swamiji did mention about what He really meant about controlling. Controlling is when you are able to keep the mind totally quiet to its original status, to its natural status, that is the control He used to say. “Probably that means when you are able to make the thoughts and visions dissolve”; when I asked that, then He said, “No, its effects of analyzing, making judgments and recognizing an object, anything, is to be stopped. That is the real control”, He said. You control that the mind doesn’t recognize anything. You control that the mind doesn’t analyze anything, and you control that mind doesn’t make any judgments. Then its operation stops, mind’s. Then the mind is totally under the control of itself, the Real Self. It has become Pure Consciousness and Self now, Divinity.

Same Questioner: So what is life like for a person with a controlled mind?

Babaji: Simply in total peace, and contentment, because nothing arises, no need or any desire doesn’t arise. So just today, one devotee had come to meet me. He said, “It is so boring to be alone in a room, or in one home. This COVID has made our lives a hell of a job.” I said, “You can make me sit in a room for forty years. That’s nothing. It’s natural for me, because you are not used to. One important thing,” I told him, “You don’t have your mind under control.” “What’s control? How do I control?” he said. “So you have to control the thoughts, visions. You don’t imagine anything, you don’t analyze anything, and you don’t make any judgments.” “You don’t make any judgments?” he asked. “Yes, a Yogi does not make any judgment, who is good, who is bad. Really, that doesn’t come into the mind. Just watches the Self all the time, is in the awareness of the Self. Whether the body is talking or not talking, so that’s what happens to a Yogi. Because there is total peace, that is known as the Supreme Peace, because there is no further, any other higher quality peace can be there. It’s contented, so there is no need of anything.

Same Questioner: So obviously there’s no ruminating if the mind is silent, but ruminating is a problem for people. They can’t get things out of their mind, they can’t stop thinking.

Babaji: That’s why I tell, if there is thinking in the mind, if there are thoughts that are coming, good also will come, and it will be followed by the bad. Happiness will also come, which will be followed by unhappiness, because mind gets involved into dualities. It cannot keep itself into one thing. You see, if all the time one could have simply imagined only happiness and be happy, then everybody would have been happy. That doesn’t happen for any creature, any human being. So if they are happy today, tomorrow they are unhappy. Next moment they are unhappy. So that’s why these thoughts have to be stopped once for all, so that there is neither happiness or unhappiness of this world. Then it is totally at peace in its nature. It is naturally quiet and contented. With the quietness, a combination of contentment also happens. That’s when there is no need of anything. So nobody can trouble such a person.

Same Questioner: Just one last clarification. So Baba, it’s difficult to conceive that you could function through the day without a mind full of thoughts.

Babaji: You see, if at all I have to plan, I don’t plan much at all. Naturally, mechanically, everyday-routine things. And I would admit that activities are very less compared to a normal human being. I cannot be active too much for a long time. Only attend to a little bit of the institution ashram’s work. Quickly, quickly finish and just sit quietly. And then, that’s it. So that’s how it happens. So, if at all I have to imagine and be active a little more, then simply that imagination comes, but it doesn’t stay for a long time to trouble me enough. Just like the robber comes and then he disappears. So, he is not troublesome. If he stays back and tries to catch hold of my neck and wants to rob me, then the trouble starts. So, otherwise there’s no trouble.

Same Questioner: I would just like to comment Baba, you know, I’ve worked with you for fifteen years and just for everybody else to know that Baba never misses any detail. He’s the most punctual person, so if He’s not thinking, I want to be like that.

Babaji: I promise, I swear. Not thinking all the time, not bothering, not planning. So once the plan, and then just leave it, and somehow it takes shape. That’s when we realize a higher energy that is Supreme Consciousness is taking care of the creation due to its energy presence. That is also due to that Supreme Energy, but not according to the wishes of the Supreme Energy. That’s why there is no imagination, means no wishes, no thoughts. I have no wishes that somebody should be benefited, somebody not. Like we are answering questions, we are answering. It’s up to all the participants, now sixty seven number it is showing, how much they can pay attention to my answer? How much they can be benefited? It is their faith, their intention, and their interest. I have no judgment that let one person benefit, I will answer only concerned to this person, not to the other. We are answering. Anybody can grasp this, anybody can understand.

Questioner No. 2: As I watch my thoughts, I realize about discrimination and I think discrimination might just be programming, and I eliminate it, but then there’s something else called intuition. Something higher comes in and makes my decision, which I don’t know, I can’t say it’s right or wrong. So, I guess I want to understand the difference between, well, what is intuition basically?

Babaji: Intuition is also an imagination. When as a coincidence, if such a thing happens, so that person becomes very happy with a self-egoistic, “Oh, I had the intuition”. In this world we have seen so many trying to claim, “I had the intuition that this thing would happen, and it really happened like that. I was going on that way, some intuition came to me that such a tiger is going to come in front of me and it came”, and they get so much excited. You see, this thing is very trivial for a Yogi who has become one with the Divinity and whose mind is totally settled into contentment and no desire. That’s what one has to achieve. Continue meditation, ignore this intuition, and imaginations, and happening, everything. Let things happen on its own. If you want to plan, you just plan, and then forget about it. Then work, work for that through the physical body. Then try to meditate everyday so that you can reach a higher state of total quietness.

Questioner No. 3: My question is, I thought you teach us that this is the problem we have, concept of ‘me and mine’ and that’s where all of our difficulties come from. What I’m wondering is, with dispassion, as we can let go of our judgments, and let go of the thought of ‘me and mine’, is the ‘I’ thought then, does that become, or is that in fact the Consciousness of Existence, or is there a different way to think of that?

Babaji: No, this ‘I’ concept ‘me and mine’, both are imaginations. Beyond this imagination is the Consciousness of Existence. So, when I talk of Consciousness of Existence, when there is no imagination, other times still you have a feeling that you exist, but there is no definition of what it is. That is Consciousness of Existence. You should not have any definition, “Oh this is me”, then it jumps into ego and up crops other imaginations. ‘Me’ and then the ‘mine’ starts. This me is also mine. That’s why it becomes egoistic. This me is not me. Then ‘You’, ‘Thou art’ what you call it – that’s Consciousness of Existence.

Questioner No. 4: Pranams Babaji and Happy Father’s Day. A fortnight ago on the last programme with the US participants, Victoria was asking You some questions and one of them was how to continue the effects of meditation, the watching, the sadhana in our waking hours, when our eyes are open. And You had talked about that, but I didn’t quite understand all the way and I wonder if you might speak about that a little bit more.

Babaji: You see, finally this comes through practice, long time practice only, because it is not through the eyes that you have to see this, what you are talking of; Consciousness of Existence or the Self, whatever it is. Because eyes of this body is meant so that you can see this world. When you are walking, you need to see the road, you need to see your back and you need to see surroundings. Otherwise, you can hit your head onto some wall, or some pillar, and some accident can happen, you have to be careful. But while doing all these, when you are seeing through the eyes, your mind, which would have regained the form of consciousness, then its maximum attention is on to the Self, that Consciousness of Existence. This becomes possible when you practice long time meditation. Other than that, you can remember the teachings. Long time if you go on remember the teaching, you have to stop walking. Long time if you try to remember the teaching, then you have to stop working, planning, everything, slowly decreases. If this is acceptable to you, then do it. Not until then. Otherwise sit and meditate, then that practice comes. You would appear to be a little bit active, but you are not really active. You appear to be seeing something through the naked eyes, but you are not seeing anything. It comes through long time meditation practice.

Same Questioner: So Baba, in other words, when you can meditate for an hour without any thoughts, the real meditation, not just trying to meditate, you are gaining that pure consciousness, and then that is kind of when you would more be able to do that.

Babaji: Yes.

Questioner No. 5: Pranam Babaji. My question was that when I am just witnessing in my meditation, these days I have these energetic tingling sensations on my throat, and it disturbs my state of witness. So, what should I do for this? Just feel some blockage there, and then it distracts me. Otherwise, mind is quiet, but this is bothering.

Babaji: See, if it is tingling in the throat, try to gargle, take some warm water, and put a little bit of salt, and then gargle. If there is any such physical problem, it can clear and be helpful. That is what it is. Other than that, if there is any tingling which is not connected to the physical, that means your mind’s attention is there. So, that’s when you start feeling as if there is some tingling there. So, if you take this method and do like that one, try to gargle and then sit back again so that your attention is in between eyebrows, then you are able to continue for some more meditation, that would be possible.

Questioner No. 6: In order to ask my question, I actually have to tell You a little story about when I first met You. The night that I met You, I was invited to have dinner with You. This is what, twelve, fifteen years ago. And I remember at that dinner, I remember so distinctly at the dinner, You telling us the story of Swamiji, Your Guru, and the time when You met Him. I was asking You these questions, and You were telling me that. And what I remember about that night, Baba, was life transforming. It was simply your love for Swamiji. I had never in my life seen, and I’m touched even trying to tell You, I’ve never seen such love. I had never experienced the presence of someone with such love as Your love for Swamiji. And I remember leaving that night and thinking to myself, my whole spiritual path and the way I approached it would change. Because now instead of finding happiness for myself and making my troubles go away, what I really wanted when I left that night, was I wanted to know how to love like that? How do we love like that? How do we love like You? So that’s my question.

Babaji: You see, that love, it naturally has to happen. You cannot plan and cultivate because the mind gets into imaginations. When it happens naturally and you have nothing else to analyze or make any judgments, it has to be to such an extent, even if the Guru wants to test you, disturb your love, wants to make you to give up loving him, it must not happen. It should not be possible, even for God to disturb your love. That’s the love. Once you love, means you have no more judgment, you have no more analyzations of what the Guru is. Guru – that’s it. No other definition, whether the Guru is good or bad, whether the Guru is right or wrong, nothing. Simply it’s Guru. I love. Like Swamiji, I love. What Swamiji is, was, or going to be, not going to be, nothing. It never came, anything. He just asked, we did. He just wanted, I did. That’s it, simple. And there was no questioning, no analyzing, why I should be, why I should not be. It simply came and nobody could disturb. And about nearly ten years ago also, when we were in Ananda ashram, this type of question was asked and I answered, that has become an ego for me actually, this world, a sattvic ego. When I love my Guru, His institution, anything connected to it, is loving. If anybody stands against that, I won’t see who it is; even if it’s God, no problem. Must not be against. So that’s how Swamiji Himself used to talk sometime, “Hey look, you are not going to allow anybody to enter my room. You will stand as a guard. You sleep here in the night. Remember, even if Lord Shiva comes, you are not going to allow Him, even if Lord Shiva is going to cut your head”. That’s it. No other thinking. Oh, this comes naturally when the time is ripe. Just fall in love. That’s it. You cannot answer. I couldn’t answer my mother. Remember, when she asked me, “What do you mean by ‘Swamiji ,Swamiji’? You are chanting unnecessarily. What do you know about Swamiji? What do you know about Ashram?” I told her, “I don’t know whether Swamiji is a Yogi or a bad guy. What I know is, I have fallen in love. That much I know. So when I have fallen in love, I don’t need to know whether He is good or bad. Why should I know? And I’m going to love Him under any circumstances whatever He is.” So that’s the love.

Questioner No. 7: I really appreciate the very good fortune in my life to have come into contact with You in these groups. And I want to kind of bring together the discussion with Augusta with what You said at the beginning about Father’s Day. And my question is this, it’s said widely in Sanskrit literature that there’s three rinas, debts to the Pitras, the Devatas and the Rishis, to the ancestors, the Gods, and the teachers, the Gurus. And obviously Father’s Day plays much into this. And as far as what Augusta’s discussion about this avalanche of thoughts that’s really unstoppable in our sadhanas and meditations and so on, I just wonder, really, I mean, it seems reasonable that given the fact that we have these debts, that we have to work them out on some level in the world, not just in our meditations. And you know, as we advance in years as perhaps I am, then there’s this gnawing feeling that I’ve taken a lot more than I’ve given. And I think that’s in a way responsible for – at least my little corner of the cosmos – avalanche of mental activity. And I wonder whether really it is possible to work out all of these rinas, all of these debts on the level of our meditation, or whether we really do have to work them out in the world. And if we do, then maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but I just wonder how we can establish, you know, that is being an acceptable way to think about things, especially during our meditations.

Babaji: You see, one important thing, you need to realize, when in this world, if we have to give back or we have to do anything, it is as long as this physical body is available. So that means it has its limitations. So before this physical body goes, whatever possible just keep on doing. Physically we go on doing, but we must avoid taking any such imaginations into the mind. Not even do not feel sorry for this world, do not feel guilty ever, do not feel that you are indebted. Whatever you are destined, you got. Whatever you are destined, you will give. You are neither the taker nor the giver. Finally, so thus you remain silent. Whatever has to happen, the Divine will take you, make you to do that. He will take it from you to this world. Like we decided when some people said, “If you behave like this, as many people may not come, this may not happen, that may not happen. So when the visa was denied, you may not be destined to go to America and teach them, you are not destined to this.” If we are destined, whoever is destined to receive our blessings, they will be brought by the Divine Guru. I don’t have to worry and keep imagining about these things. So like that if you remain, you can definitely do as long as the body is available. Whatever you want to do you do it, but avoid the imagination in the mind. Don’t feel either guilty or don’t feel either anything, neither indebted, neither guilty, neither have taken, nothing has to give. You cannot give it. It is the Divine who takes and who gives actually. Nobody else can give anything.

Same Questioner: I mean, it is true, I guess, that we are imagining all of this to be the case, but then there is the other side of it that perhaps we really have taken more than we’ve given, and we may really need to be reborn another thousand times in order to give back what we receive. I don’t know… or is that just an imagination?

Babaji: It’s no problem. If you have the imagination, if you want to be reborn for a thousand times, you can do that. Who will stop you? Divine will be more happy that His creation is going to go on, as long as you want to be born again and again. You see, when we try to teach, we just recommend to lose the imagination, then everything ends. When the imagination ends, all debts, everything ends, the accounts. So, when the account is cleared only you can lose that imagination also. So, that’s what you have to try. You have to keep trying. Pray to the Divine. Let the Divine grace upon you to end all accounts. Clear all accounts as much as possible. My Guru used to give one example. If you pray like that, He will start cutting your throat, your fingers, your hands, He will start doing surgery, slap, slap you, so that your accounts can be clear. But if you want to come slowly hundreds and thousands of lives and then your account gets cleared, then He will keep kissing you today, He will talk sweetly to you and again you keep coming, again you keep coming, like that it can happen. The imagination has no end. So, finally, whatever is coming to your mind, that you will get to see. That’s what it is, either way.

Questioner No. 8: Babaji, this is Aditya, my son. So, he wants to talk to you: What is it like doing meditation?

Babaji: You see, when you go to sleep, you enjoy. You want to keep sleeping, when you are sleepy, if mom comes and wakes you up, “Come on, it’s time to study and go to school”, you would like to keep sleeping. The meditation is a little bit like that. Somewhat a clue at this age that I can give you. When you close your eyes and when you pray to God. So, that’s meditation, a clue. If you meditate, you can become like a genius in this world. That is one more thing I can tell you. Practice meditation, try to learn from your Papa.

Questioner No. 9: Namaste, Babaji. I’ve hesitated to ask this question. I don’t want to sound like a heretic, but I’ve been meditating since I was a young boy, my entire life, many decades, full time for many decades. In fact I was going to move and be with You some time ago before I got distracted from that by family obligations. But my whole life, I’ve been devoted to the Advaita tradition that you talked about, and I have great love and respect for that. But in the past few years, when the Divine has become more active in my life, I’m just enjoying the Leela of having the Divine there, but also the beauty of the relative. And as you know, Shankara Chariya, who I have only the greatest respect for, had this perspective that You’re teaching, but there are other teachings like that of Ramanaji others who are saying, “Why not enjoy the lifetimes of being devoted to God?” And I’m only inspired to say this because of what you said to my dear friend Ardyna Kumara, and so that’s really my question, which is, why if I’m enjoying this Divine Leela so much, which only is worthwhile when you have the Divine there, otherwise it’s very painful, I understand that. But when the Divine is there and you’re enjoying the Leela, then as You said, why not come back? You said it would make the Creator happy if you could come back as a Rishi or whatever. So I’m interested in Your answer to that?

Babaji: You see, coming back is no problem, but it all depends on your mind and its status. If only you can visualize and imagine God only and nothing else all the time, then you might enjoy. But the mind is not guaranteed that all the time it will… because it wants to come back to enjoy the Leela. So then what is that Leela that you want to enjoy? So that imagination also will crop up after some time. So you have to be careful. So, just want to enjoy the Leela, meditation is the final answer when you can enjoy the Leela. When you become quiet – that is the real enjoyment of being a devotee of the Divine, because when there is neither you, nor the Divine, then you are with the Divine. Any other imagination you want to come back, it’s up to you.

Same Questioner: I’m not running away from the Mahasthan Māri. If Bhagavan brings that, if that happens tomorrow then ‘Jai Guru Dev’. But at the same time, you know, why not enjoy the Leela? Why not at least be open to that? Because it created this great wonderful universe. Why did He create that? There’s so much that I know, we hear the stories of the Rishis, but it’s all just mythology to me. You know, I haven’t experienced that, and the Yogi focuses mostly on direct experience.

Babaji: It’s all right if you want to enjoy that way, you can come and you can enjoy, you can imagine that you want to come back and you will resolve you will come back, and you can enjoy.

Same Questioner: Okay, well, thank you for clarifying that. As you know, it’s not a popular opinion among many people.

Babaji: No, no, it’s your choice. Finally, we are Yogis. We are not simply wedded to one type of doctrine. Finally, we just tell the science – what can happen. If you want that, if you think like that, it can happen. The choice will be yours finally. You are independent to exercise your choice.

Questioner No. 10: Hi Baba, Happy Father’s Day. Just had a quick question. We started the talk about silencing the mind, Agastya opened about we have many thoughts. What is it about when the mind stops, and becomes silent, there is an insight and wisdom, and I know a Yogi after Mahasamadhi, there’s so much amazing wisdom that can come out. Where does that come from or how does that happen? There’s just so much knowledge that’s just inherently there.

Babaji: It is from the Ultimate Source. For sake of play, Leela, just a while ago that we were discussing about the Divine play, same thing, the same source creates ignorance and it creates knowledge. Both come out of imagination. So, when one day the imagination ends, there is neither ignorance nor knowledge. So that’s what happens. When it’s coming, knowledge, it is from the same source from where the ignorance came, the Ultimate Truth.

Questioner No.1: In a previous meeting, You were talking about Avidya and Maya, that’s ignorance and illusion, and You said that that illusion could be removed, dissolved, by awareness-knowledge. And it was like a candle that eliminated darkness, knowledge-awareness eliminated illusion, or Maya. Could you explain what the awareness-knowledge is that eliminates the illusion?

Babaji: Knowledge-awareness, or awareness-knowledge is when the ‘I’ merges with the Self practically and it’s not as a separate entity that you will know it. Knowledge of, awareness of knowledge, is when you get to hear from somebody or you get to read a scripture of a Self-Realized master’s teachings that you try to visualize that truth – that is knowledge of awareness. But when you actually become totally quiet, mentally in every way, and merge with the Self, that is knowledge-awareness. Because why I wanted to tell, that Ultimate Truth is the knowledge that everybody is looking for, that you are looking for. And you have merged with it and that is that knowledge and that is the awareness of that knowledge, that is the Truth. So that’s how the difference between knowledge of awareness and knowledge-awareness, I have tried to explain I think.

Same Questioner: So, knowledge usually is a subject and object and that would be like knowledge of something, like what You were saying, knowledge of awareness. But then there’s just pure knowingness where there’s no subject or object, but there’s still knowingness there, like maybe pure awareness or something like that. Would it be like that?

Babaji: Yeah, when the ‘I’ which wanted to know something, has merged with that, which was what was needed to know about. So now this ‘I’ and the knowledge both have merged into that knowledge, which is that existence.

Same Questioner: So, when you have that pure knowingness or self-awareness, then the illusion just vanishes, you no longer can see that as a real thing?

Babaji: Yeah. Like the seer and seen, both disappear, the droplet and ocean, both concepts disappear. Only one single Self exists there. Means, not to offend any devotional person, both the devotee and the Divine disappear. See, as long as there is a devotee, there is a Divine to be recognized. Just like, as long as there is disciple, there is a Guru. The disciple merges with the Guru, both the disciple and the Guru disappear. That concept. So, what remains is That.

Same Questioner: So, once Nirvikalpa Samadhi has been obtained or Sahaja Samadhi, then that awareness that You’re speaking of is permanent. So, you can never be drawn back into the Maya, to the illusion.

Babaji: Yes.

Questioner No. 11: My only question is about vairagya. In all this discussion you have not touched on vairagya. How important is it? Can it be activated or does it happen naturally?

Babaji: It’s an alertness, an understanding that whatever appearance, like this universe, galaxy or this world, the appearance of this world, is all impermanent. It cannot give a permanent happiness. So that’s what is alertness. This alertness is what is vairagya. So it shall give you detachment from getting attracted to this appearance of the universe, including your own physical body – is impermanent. So that’s why you have to develop detachment and cultivate. Then you go for the permanent. So, because there is detachment, you want to go for the permanent now. If the detachment is not there, you would not bother to go for the permanent. You would get attracted to this impermanent world more, when there is no detachment. So that is why if the mind doesn’t have this detachment, then it doesn’t come back. It will be running towards the world all the time with imagination. Only when it has vairagya, then it comes back. It gives up. When you understand it’s impossible, then you become quiet. That is how the vairagya [happens].

Same Questioner: But isn’t that the first step in the path of spirituality?

Babaji: Yeah, it is recommended, first step. But generally, in our teaching we try to avoid. This is a very blunt teaching that the ancient teachers have given, even teachers like Adi Shankara, they have always spoken very bluntly in their teachings. We try to be a little more lenient not to trouble people, people of this world, then they start asking questions, “What is wrong if I want to love this world?” Then I have to say, “It’s up to you. You can love this world”, what I want to say. So I try to be a little softer, not that blunt, that is all. Otherwise, vairagya is definitely needed. It’s like the rocket’s thirst power to get out of the earth’s atmosphere.

Questioner No. 1: Baba, by vairagya you mean non-attachment?

Babaji: Yes.

So, wonderful – I appreciate all of your participation. Again, some wonderful questions came up. All questions, whatever you all have asked has enabled me to express my opinion and my experience, whatever my Master taught me. Every question has been wonderful. I want to convey this to you all. And on this Father’s Day, may the Divine Father bless you all to be successful in your wishes, whatever you want to achieve, whatever you want to attain. May you all be blessed with Supreme Peace.

End of Session