0:00 Intro
0:07 Was it a shock when Babaji opened His eyes, on completing Tapas, to witness the world as an illusion?
2:54 I thought it would be similar to when astronauts look back at the earth from space, when they have a transformative experience.
4:53 If one is not drawn to the path of devotion, can one instead simply have a firm conviction that the world is unreal?
6:12 Is the appearance of this world like a movie for Babaji?
7:41 So anything that appears is not real?
9:27 When Ramakrishna saw goddess Kali, is this the infinite taking a form?
12:14 Is it for the sake of the world that Babaji remains devoted to Hanuman, to Shiva and other deities?
15:27 Why do some different schools of Advaita criticise each other?
16:45 What is the story of how the Hanuman temple got built at this Ashram?
17:55 What is the significance of Hanuman?
24:47 Is it helpful to try to visualise the world as an illusion as we go about our daily lives?
26:12 What did Babaji mean by “It is You who is answering the question, it is You who is asking the question, for You to find the way back to the Divinity”?
29:18 If there is only one being, can we say that different masters get Realized at the same moment in time?
29:47 Would it be the same awakening?
30:34 When Swamiji used to manifest, how did He awaken Babaji when He was in the samadhi state?
30:55 Does the new moon or the full moon have any affect on meditation?
31:35 How did Valmiki overcome his sins to become Self-Realized?
33:09 If we commit a wrong act and regret it, should we be open to whatever karma will come?
33:43 If we do something wrong and we regret, is the suffering already in the mind?
34:06 Swamiji used to say that Narada also initiated Jesus when he came to India?
34:59 How did Jesus become so famous whereas many other saints were not well known?
36:32 Was this a good thing, that Jesus became well known in this way?
37:06 Could Babaji narrate the story of Sage Narada and the two disciples?
39:11 Who was sage Narada?
40:49 If I slap somebody, at some point in life will someone slap me back?
42:29 Does good karma also come back to you?
45:50 Why do you still have to undergo karma if the mind has been purified?
50:21 Why is it that everywhere Swamiji established Ashrams there has been some conflict over those properties?

Discourse: In Quest of Truth
India Meditation Retreat 2024 Day 8 Evening Q&A
You tube Link: https://youtu.be/69ytUfk3AIA   
Recorded: February 2024

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Was it a shock when Babaji opened His eyes on competing Tapas, to witness the world as an illusion?

Babaji Maharaj:   There was no such shock, because for long time this firm conviction was there.  The appearance is at least impermanent and illusion.  We had firm faith and a firm conviction.  And as we progressed in the tapas also with the visions coming and going, then it got transformed into mental projection and disappeared.  Then finally, we saw the physical appearance like a manifestation also, and then not doing anything and disappeared when we did not react.  So, all this had given an insight and firm experience, like a practical workshop experience in the laboratory.  So, when the final thing happened, it was natural, just.  There was no such shock, because there was no such thinking till then, not even once there was any thinking that this world might be real or is real or it is appearing as real.  Because the dream sequences and this world we always compared; it is very easy to understand. 

Like for example, when you are dreaming, as long as you are dreaming, it appears so solid and firm and perfect.  You can never make out you are dreaming, but once you get up, the dream is gone.  And you cannot even show where the dream happened, whether it happened here or happened here.  It was within your mind that picture was there.  So, this type of churning was always there.  And at least more than fifteen years before that, before the actual tapas also, Yoga Vasistha was very helpful, its stories, psychological stories about the time and space, all different incarnations, why it happens, the mind spinning.  So, all these were there, so it just came naturally; just one more step and practically happening – mind became totally quiet.  Rather, sometimes it was hair raising when the actual truth gets revealed.  It is like the hair rising effect of how beautiful, how wonderful – we did not know and we never bothered about this.  It is so simple; we had made it so complicated. 

Question:   I thought it would be similar to when astronauts look back at the earth from space, when they have a transformative experience.

Babaji Maharaj:   See, you are right; they never knew means they had read only in theory a little bit.  Like, since the times of Galileo and even in ancient sages of India, mathematicians, they all had visualized – the earth revolving around the sun, earth is a globe; it is not a flat land.  So, all these things humans knew already.  But yet, they would have simply got to read in a book.  They had no experience and no firm conviction of continuous thinking.  So, that’s when they would have become amazingly surprised when they got to see practically – the earth as around globe, glowing, they see from a distance.  The same thing we get to see the moon also from here.  But that doesn’t sit for many people in the mind.  So, if we simply stand and see the moon, it is a globe that is going around the earth, coming.  And earth also is moving – it’s going around the earth and is moving.  So, these amazing things we can visualize now when we get to see that one after a long time.  So, that is very thrilling.  Even today it is very thrilling, see?  So, that type of experience would have happened to the astronauts.  That is what probably they are telling.  A thrill definitely happens when you come face to face in that consciousness, the Ultimate Truth of the aatman. 

No shock, nothing.  Because there was no such conviction, this is real and suddenly it occurred that it is unreal.  There was no such thing.  It was not a sudden experience.

Question:   If one is not drawn to the path of devotion, can one instead simply have a firm conviction that the world is unreal?

Babaji Maharaj:   They can think and have this conviction that this is unreal.  So, devotion helps to take it firmly without doubting, with firm faith.  So, that helps definitely.  But however, at least you can see the impermanence also which is clearly visible, impermanence of the world.  The day doesn’t stop there and the night also doesn’t stop there, like that.  It keeps moving.  Now it is daytime.  A short while it will be dark; like that it changes, it is impermanent.  Nothing stays permanently.  And many things we get to see, the changes, we humans and other creatures, all these things.  So, it is practical; it is available.  That also you can visualize and try to understand and think it is impermanent.  The short time is there, “I must meditate.  I must know the truth.”  So, it should not allow the time to simply pass by, should not postpone.  So, that type of conviction will come. 

Question:   Is the appearance of this world like a movie for Babaji?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, it is like a vague dream.  The clear experience is there.  But the appearance is there as long as this body is there, because little bit of consciousness is in touch with the brain.  Thus, apart from the oxygen and the blood the brain receives, it is application of the mind also a little bit that serves as a fuel.  But too much of fuel is not poured into the brain to consider it as a reality.  So thus, a vague picture definitely appears.  Everything, people moving, people talking, people doing, behaving normally only it appears.  But for all this,  our consciousness is only a witness, doesn’t get affected, doesn’t make a judgment, a firm judgment, “This is it.  This type like this.”  These are all appearance.  So, that is what I have told before also: the universe or the world has appearance value, but does not have the existence value.  Whereas the space has the existence value.  It may not appear to be appeared, appearance, but it is there.  So, like that the Aatman, the Self also, infinite in form.  It doesn’t appear to be there, but it is there. 

Question:   So, anything that appears is not real?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, it will disappear.  So, when it appears and disappears, it cannot be real.  The same thing I have tried to tell also;  God is not a personality who is sitting somewhere in the space.  That is not God.  If the God was a personality, He could have come in front of masses and He would have told, “I am God and you all have to worship me.  I can only protect you.”  Something like that He would have assured.  But such a thing has not happened historically or in the legends.  If anybody has claimed to have had a vision of the Divinity or God, it was only an individual.  When Swamiji saw the Jangama Sage, He only saw – other eleven friends who were there, they didn’t get to see anything; like that type of thing. 

So, that means this happens through a technology.  The same infinite form which is space assumes a form.  Just like in the mind, your mind is infinite space.  But the moment you start thinking and are creative, the same mind assumes a form also.  That is not ordinary thing when we are talking.  It’s amazing.  That is what is creation, creativity, create.  Though we talk of the imagination technology, but this imagination technology is not an ordinary thing.  It’s an amazing quality of that Supreme Consciousness and Supreme Energy that makes it so real. 

Question:   When Sri Ramakrishna saw Goddess Kaali, is this the Infinite taking a form?

Babaji Maharaj:   That is true what He saw.  But it doesn’t happen that the Kaali in that form as a human personality or something exists somewhere and comes in front of you; doesn’t happen.  It’s simply all-pervaded.  We all understand, you all believe, have faith that the Divine is all-pervaded, not simply at one place.  If it was existing at one place, it couldn’t have been a divine personality or Divinity at all.  Then it wouldn’t have been all powerful.  It has to be all-pervaded.  When it’s all pervaded, one single body cannot be all-pervaded, it cannot occupy two places at the same time; scientifically also, in spirituality also it is the same.  The same all-pervadedness manifested in that form due to His Mahabhaava.  That’s what they all also said; Mata Bhairavi Brahmani said  “He is in Mahabhaava.  Though in His own mental resolutions, but that is of the highest quality.  Because of His visualization, He saw it.” 

Means finally, it was the same Self which was guiding the Self.  Ramakrishna was the Self and His own Self was guiding Him, but in the form of another anchor.  These things may not be able to digest quickly if I even tell also.  When Babaji, somebody is sitting in front of you, this is not a separate entity.  You as Nara is sitting there, and you as Baba sitting here and you are guiding yourself.  Means when you came out of the origin, the Divinity, you would have pressed a button in which way that you will go; you will find your way, definitely.  If necessary, in a duality.  If it’s a duality, you will find it as a Guru, as an anchor, as a Divinity, something like that.  Thus, you will return in such a way.  Finally, when you realize neither you nor that was ever there and is ever there, only one single Self, that is the Truth that exists.  That’s what everybody has tried to explain – attributeless, beyond all comprehension, Parabrahman, that’s what in Vedas and Upanishads they have tried to explain all these things. 

Question:   Is it for the sake of the world that Babaji remains devoted to Hanuman, to Shiva and other deities?

Babaji Maharaj:   So, this we can say in a simple language; while in this world we try to follow the worldly manners.  That is the Guru and this is the disciple.  But in consciousness all are same.  In the same way it is one Self, but when we enact the drama we don’t claim “I have become Divine” or “That is not”.  No such thing.  Yogis will never claim, that’s why it is; not necessary.  So, we behave in bhakti marga, in a duality to inspire everybody, “This is Hanuman.  You worship this one.  You chant this one.”  Slowly I will guide, because so many students sitting, different students’ mental level may be different.  Combined I am trying to talk both – duality, non duality, highest philosophy, this and that.  As the question is coming, I am trying to talk.  Whoever can understand, take it, take, otherwise also the teaching is available.  Just now do not worry; do that much.  If you cannot comprehend Advaita, just put vadamaala (garland of vadas placed on Hanuman idol) for now.  You will see it afterwards.  One day you will realize what it is.  Till then you need that, Hanuman.  Hanuman is within you also.  But there also you would need to visualize to do that one so that your mind can remain concentrated.  That is the idea, the basic idea. 

Meditation also you do so that you bring back the mind into single-pointedness.  Till then the mind will not be able to go introvert.  It has come extrovert and is into duality.  It will visualize all dualities.  You have to bring it single-pointed, then go introverted.  So before making it go introverted, if you are unable to silently bring it together, at least try to stay on an anchor, Hanumanji, Babaji, Shivabalayogi, Venkateshwara, Narasimha; something like that, whichever appeals to you.  This is another important point.  No single concept or phenomena will be appealing to all human beings in a same way.  Different people, different things may appeal.  That is why liberally in Sanaatana Dharma, Hindu dharma it has been taught, whether it is Shiva or Vishnu it is no problem.  You can call in any way that you like; God never minds.  Because God knows He is above all these things.  But yet if you want to call it Shiva, you call it.  But if you have the magnanimity and maturity, don’t condemn the other one who is calling it Vishnu or in any other name for that purpose. Simply, leave that there.  So, that is the basic idea why this is also being done, this is also being done. 

Question:   Why do some different schools of Advaita criticize each other?

Babaji Maharaj:   They are all the blind people trying to identify the elephant.  One says elephant is like a pillar.  Another says elephant is like a big fan.  Another says elephant is like a rope.  That is because they are blind.  They are not yet opened up to the actual truth, not experienced.  They have read the theory and they try to frame up.  Once they become a scholar they start thinking they are experts and they keep arguing.  The person who worships like Hanuman, they will criticize the Advaita people, some of the people, “O, this is totally nonsense, when I do the pranaam I am doing the pranaam to the Aatman.”  But they put their Guru’s photo in their rooms.  The same thing you are doing they will criticize.  So that is how they keep making the mistakes.  The day they are able to realize the Ultimate Truth, they will never be a critic.  That is also same, this is also same.  Simply that has come like this and this has come like this.  That is all.  There is no difference. 

Question:   What is the story of how the Lord Hanuman temple got built at this Ashram?

Babaji Maharaj:   I told He wanted to come.  So, He told me that He wants to come and sit on the boulder.  That is very conducive for Him.  So, then I got the idol made.  We went to Mysore and the same Arun Yogiraj, he had become busy by then, so he was unable to do this.  Then his brother offered, “Babaji, please give me a chance.  I will also do that one and I will get it done for You.”  I said, “Okay, you do it, you are destined to do that one.  So, you will also be blessed.”  So, then he got it made very beautifully with all his devotion, and then we installed it there.  First, we installed in the open and we made a platform so that everybody can stand, and we saw when in scorching sun heat the idol might get disturbed, then we put the tin shed also.  That is how the Hanuman came to be.  Otherwise, only a stone boulder was there. 

Question:   What is the significance of Lord Hanuman?

Babaji Maharaj:   Hanuman comes in the story of Ramayana.  He served Sri Rama.  In Yoga Vashista, it talks that Hanuman was also a great Self-Realized person.  But Indians widely believed that He was incarnation of the wind God, and some people even believed that He is incarnation of Lord Shiva who came to help Vishnu’s incarnation who came as Rama.  But significantly, though He was Self-Realized, He remained in the dasya bhaava, as a servant to Rama.  He never Himself behaved like a Guru or a Master or any such thing.  So, He was blessed with enormous physical strength also.  And in the story, after Sita was taken away, kidnapped by Ravana, Rama and Lakshmana were going in quest of Sita, looking for her.  They didn’t know where to look for her, in which way to go.  So, on the way they got guided to go near Kishkindha.  One of the demons whom they had cut his hands, he guides them, “So, you go in that direction, the Rishyamukha Parvata, at that place.” 

Here, in Kishkindha, there were Vaali and Sugriva too.  That was a tribe, vanara tribe.  It’s like the kingdom of apes, for precise understanding.  So, many of them were all physically enormously strong.  Vaali and Sugriva were two brothers; Vaali was the king and Sugriva was the younger brother.  Once Vaali went to fight a demon who took him inside the cave.  For a long time, Vaali did not return.  Sugriva was waiting at the door of the cave.  And blood comes out, then Sugriva gets terrified.  He thinks that “My brother might have been killed.”  He comes back to kingdom.  Then all the ministers forced him to take up the throne and become the king because the kingdom cannot be without a king; it is necessary.  But here, Vaali did not die.  He kills the demon finally.  Then he comes out after some time.  When he comes to Kishkindha, he learns that Sugriva has become the king taking over the throne.  Whereas Sugriva comes and surrenders, tells “Brother, we are so happy you have come back.  I didn’t know.  You please take over your throne.”  But Vaali doesn’t accept that graciously.  He is very much annoyed.  He bashes Sugriva very much.  He was more strong physically. 

So, out of fear, Sugriva climbs on the mountain of Rishyamukha, which was cursed by a sage, that “If Vaalli comes to that mountain, he will get killed,” so, Vaali wouldn’t go there.  So, that place was safe.  Sugriva had four ministers, four confident lieutenants with him.  One of them was Hanuman.  Hanuman was born to Anjana Devi and Kesari.  So, He was there.  So, from very early age, He got Self-Realized, I think.  In the story, it says when his mother tells, “When somebody who can recognize the earrings that is in you naturally, know that as your Guru and your Divine.  Till the last moment you have to serve.”  So, now here when they are there, Rama, Lakshmana come in search of Sita.  As they are coming near the foothills of the Rishyamukha mountain, Sugriva’s lieutenants give him an intelligence report; “Some two people are coming, they are very bright and glowing faces.  We don’t know whether they are enemies, what it is.”  Then Hanuman is sent to find out what it is. 

In all those places, the poet writes “Hanuman, apart from physically strong, mentally was also very wise.  Without properly verifying, He wouldn’t jump into any conclusions, who they are or who this is.”  So, He comes disguised as a brahmin priest.  He comes closer to Rama, Lakshmana.  First, Lakshmana also tells “This must be some demonic forces who has come as a disguise.  We must go and act.”  Then Rama was also equally very wise in approach.  He said “Lakshmana, cool down.  Don’t lose your temper so abruptly.  Look at the beautiful earrings, he is not an ordinary person.”  Then on listening to this Hanuman is very excited, “O, I have found my Guru”, beautifully He jumps.  So, He regains His form of Hanuman.  Then he takes both Rama and Lakshmana to His king, Sugriva.  So, then Sugriva, they talk, “So, if You help me to take back the kingdom and defeat my brother, I will serve You.  I will help You to find your wife, Sita.”  So, that’s how they come into the picture in Ramayana story. 

So, Kishkinda is supposed to be at the northern part of Karnataka state in South India.  That is what it is said.  So, throughout Ramayana, He served, Hanuman.  So, then finally, it was Hanuman who went to Lanka and found out that Sita is there and comes back and gives the information.  It’s all a long story.  Then Hanuman, Rama, Lakshmana go to fight with Ravanasura with the army of the vanaras, apes.  Apes all helped, big army of apes.  They were all physically very strong.  They go, then finally they defeat and come back.  So, all the vanaras, they become very great devotees.  So, Hanuman was a very great devotee of Rama.  So, that’s why in Ramayana, wherever people talk of Rama, they talk of Hanuman also.  At least for our Hindus, our Indian culture people, Hanuman is a wonderful, dearest character.  He was in total celibacy of brahmacharya, all the time in samadhi, remembering Sri Rama’s name.  So, that character is very big role model for us from childhood that we have heard these stories.  So, many stories are there; very long things to tell.  This is a brief introduction for you, Hanuman. 

Question:   Is it helpful to try to visualize the world as an illusion as we go about our daily lives?

Babaji Maharaj:   It’s important.  As a Guru, what I would advise, living in the West, in America, in a country, you have to work hard, you need to be serious on that front.  While you try to visualize and think this world is impermanent all the time to keep yourself revived to that policy, while working to earn a livelihood, just be serious.  At that time if you lose interest to do the things and go into a depression, “This world is unreal,” then it will be a chaotic condition for you.  So, while behaving in the world, behave as it demands.  If it demands that “I have to be here at 4:30 to make you all sit for meditation,” I have to respect that 4:30, right? Serious on that 4:30!  Like that, you also remain.  On and off, you keep reminding.  “Finally, this world is an illusion, I don’t have to worry too much about this world.  So, let me earn a little bit livelihood and try to make myself comfortable so that I can meditate properly without getting disturbed.”  Like that, find the balance mentally, in both ways.  That will be helpful. 

Question:   What did Babaji mean by “It is You who is answering the question, it is You who is asking the question for You to find the way back to the Divinity”?

Babaji Maharaj:   Too much if I talk, it could be confusing for you.  When I talk, “You Nara, you, me, this, that.”  So, when I talk, “You Pushpa,” so, your imagination might come only to this body.  That must not be.  That is not the thing what I am trying to talk.  You as the Aatman, the infinite soul that is really, which doesn’t have an identification of Pushpa or Baba.  So, for that I was explaining.  Suppose you as a soul have fallen into the illusion, have become a personality.  Now, you are trying to meditate to regain the consciousness of your real Self.  That theory, when he asked that “You are worshipping Hanuman,” so I had to explain a little bit more, “That is not the thing.  These are the worldly manners like that.”  That is the Guru and this is the disciple.  Though, inside me it is all the same.  We have realized it is the one space.  But sitting here is Babaji, sitting there is Shivabalayogi.  So, that manners we have to have always. 

Then finally as he went on asking, talking, talking, I had to tell that “You, who is the soul and is asking the question.  You, who is the soul, is answering the question as Babaji.”  This is the final, final theory.  But just now, you should not think too much and get confused.  So, you are advised, just go slow and have meditation.  Practice; when the mind rises to that level – this is for everybody also, not only for you – rises to that level, then the understanding will come.  Otherwise, Advaita can be very confusing very often.  As he himself told, there are several Advaita groups.  One is a critic of the other.  One tells what Adi Shankara told, he was critic of that and this of the critic.  I tell that they are all half-baked beans.  They have not realized; blind people.  That’s why unless you don’t experience that Truth, you will not be able to visualize what it is. 

In a simple language, finally, one more time I will tell.  Say you are also this space and I am also this space only.  Simply temporarily, there the consciousness has assumed a woman’s form, here the Consciousness has assumed a Babaji’s form; that is all.  There is no difference, actually.  But because of the brain’s reflections, this difference appears.  Like on the screen, it’s only a 61 inches TV screen, but 100,000 miles an aeroplane, a jet plane is going so fast; it shows such an illusory effect happening.  That type of illusory effect has happened, what I was trying to tell.  Finally, it is the one single Self.  It is only a mono acting of everything of this universe.  That’s what the truth is. 

Question:   If there is one being, can we say that different Masters get Realized at the same moment in time?

Babaji Maharaj:   No, time in this world differs.  In this world it differs, the time.  So, at that level, the concept of time also disappears.  But for the world, it was from 1949 to 61 He did the Tapas, so, our Tapas came later, afterwards.  So, it all differs. 

Question:   Would it be the same awakening?

Babaji Maharaj:   Same awakening.  Awakening is the same, because the truth is one, same.  It is not two different things, finally.  When a real awakening happens, then there no critic there, it is all the same.  In whichever form, you did or He did or I did, there is no difference.  Once a yogi tells, “Bhai, if you tell that “I want to go through that temple, I want to go and take blessing from that saint,”  it’s your choice.  It’s no problem.”  For me, there is no insecurity.  I don’t have to criticize anybody. Like that when you are assured the truth is one, so that is no insecurity.  The awakening is the same, one truth. 

Question:   When Swamiji used to manifest, how did He awaken Babaji when He was in the samadhi state?

Babaji Maharaj:   Everything appeared as if He woke me up and He spoke to me and I listened to Him.  That’s what I got to see at that time.  He used to wake me up, guide and then disappear. 

Question:   Does the new moon or the full moon have any effect on meditation?

Babaji Maharaj:   Really, I didn’t have any such effect.  Both are all same.  Only when outside some people tell “For a sattvic thing, full moon day is observed and for not a sattvic people they do.”  But personally for me, I never experienced any such differences.  All seemed to be the same – when the mind settles into one thing, it is neither here nor there.  So, both doesn’t affect the mind when it’s becoming quiet.  That’s my personal experience. 

Question:   How did Valmiki overcome His sins to become Self-Realized?

Babaji Maharaj:   By meditation, by continuously meditating on the word of “mara, mara, mara, mara, mara”.  So, His consciousness, mind became purified.  Constantly like a Tapas, He did it.  He got absorbed into it and He forgot the world.  So, that’s how He got transformed into a great Sage, Self-Realized; he became to be known as Valmiki.  But whatever karma he had done, he would have undergone the fruits of such karma.  You won’t be able not to undergo, you cannot escape that one.  But by the time you would have become Self-Realized, it doesn’t matter.  Many times in a yogi‘s life also there is struggle, there is trouble.  People troubling them, criticizing them.  So many things we have to face; positive, negative. So, they are all could be the karmas, but in our consciousness nothing occurs actually. Simply one thing has happened.  So, that’s how He got initiated by Sage Narada.  That’s what the story tells.  And He became Realized; He went on doing Rama’s name.  So, to His consciousness, it became purified.  It became single-pointed to be precise; technically it became single-pointed.  When it became purified, it started going introvert also.  That’s how He became Realized. 

Question:   If we commit a wrong act and regret it, should we be open to whatever karma will come?

Babaji Maharaj:   What happens; mentally, you overcome any such calamities, troubles, anything – you won’t suffer anymore.  Any suffering doesn’t appear to be a suffering to you at all.  If at all you had done any such things, it will become simple and natural.  So, you simply take it graciously and it happens, it’s over.  So, the Divine has blessed you to clear the accounts.  So, that’s what happens. 

Question:   If we do something wrong and we regret, is the suffering already in the mind?

Babaji Maharaj:   By regretting, at least you will not repeat the mistake, you will not become habitual to do that one.  It doesn’t matter for you, once you have become purified.  “It’s okay, no problem.”  Like that you will go on.  But you won’t repeat it. 

Question:   Swamiji used to say that Narada also initiated Jesus when He came to India?

Babaji Maharaj:   Swamiji used to say it was Narada, Sage Narada who initiated Jesus Christ into meditation, He used to say this.  In Kashmir area when Jesus came to India in search of the truth.  So, thus He did Tapas, Swamiji used to say that.  That was all He used to say.  So, that is how He became Self-Realized.  But at that time, Jesus did not know who it was.  He thought that some sage initiated Him.  But then He went on and He told his experiences only.  But it was very difficult to make the people of that area understand everything.  So, He had to behave according to their understanding capabilities only.  So, that’s what Swamiji used to tell. 

Question:   How did Jesus become so famous whereas many other saints were not well known?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see the history of Jesus.  His disciples spread His name.  So, by not talking the total truth of meditation, but of miracles.  Jesus is more famous for miracles, for many people.  That’s what in the Bible also, the Bible’s thinking.  But if Jesus asked only to meditate, nobody would have bothered.  So, that’s what happens.  Tomorrow, my teachings are there; when I go away physically, if you talk that while sitting suddenly Babaji used to manifest a pumpkin, then I become famous.  Otherwise, “No, Babaji used to talk, “You all have to meditate.  You all have to meditate,”” people won’t be that much interested.  So, that’s how people of this world become curious.  Curiosity has to be generated.  And then they become the thing.  They start thinking, if you produce a chain, they believe this is God.  Nobody will think you don’t need God for a chain.  Gold chain, you can buy in the shop.  So, that type of thinking how many wisely know?  People follow blindly very often.  So, that’s how things become famous. 

Question:   Was this a good thing that Jesus became well known in this way?

Babaji Maharaj:   It depends.  In spite of all this, if anybody had developed or developed a real devotion, and worshipped in the name of Jesus, they will be blessed by the Divine.  This can also happen.  But humanity very often, they don’t even practice genuine devotion also.  So, these things are very complicated to discuss. 

Question:   Could Babaji narrate the story of Sage Narada and the two disciples?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, the story comes that two of the people who were doing meditation, long deeper Tapas.  So, when He was going to God… this is just to tell how positive you need to be while doing sadhana, then things would appear very fast.  Eight hours of sleep might appear as two minutes if you are positively sleeping, but if you become negative that eight hours might appear as eight ages.  So, that’s what to tell.  So, Narada tells, “I am going to meet God.  Is there anything I can do for you?”  One person asks, “Please ask God, how long more that I have to do Tapas to get Self-Realized?”  So, other one also asks the same thing.  So, then, Narada after some time came back after meeting God.  He told the first person, “You are sitting under this tree.  The leaves that are in this big tree, banyan tree – as many years as the leaves are there, you will have to do Tapas.”  He jumps very happily, excitedly.  Because he tells, “At least I am happy in this life, it is guaranteed that I am going to have Self-Realization.”  For the other person, He tells, “You may have to do for another few more years.”  He becomes depressed, “O, God, for so many years I have been doing.  Still more years.  It’s very difficult, not possible.”  He gives up his Tapas. 

So, that is the effect of positive thinking, negative thinking.  That’s why in one hour also, if you practice and if you are more positive, if you start enjoying the quietness, that one hour simply passes by and you will sit.  Otherwise, it will be torturesome; every five minutes, “O, God, Babaji has prescribed one hour.  He could have simply told ten minutes.”  You see, then you start thinking negatively and you lose interest to sit for one hour.

Question:   Who was Sage Narada?

Babaji Maharaj:   These are all scholarly things.  No, I am not very good at these things.  I didn’t read many scriptures.  We have heard Narada as the Devarishi, means the Angelic Sage who used to travel in all the worlds, but He is connected to music, He is a great musician.  Atma Jnani, He was Self-Realized soul, but always devoted to Lord Vishnu.  In the name of Narayana; He used to chant “Narayana, Narayana” and goes everywhere.  And the stories about Him tell that He was very naughty.  He always wanted to see how the Divine’s grace descends on a person, wanted to see the play.  So, He used to put one against the other, then see how the Divine’s grace works there to prove the devotion.  So, that type of thing was always there.  So, Narada is known for the putting fire between two people to fight.  He is known in that name also, but He was actually genuinely a great devotional person perhaps.  Nobody knows whether such a person lived or is it a legendary figure, but we all firmly believe there was Narada.  Sage Narada was there, it’s very famous in our legendary stories, it comes.

Question:   If I slap somebody, at some point in life will someone slap me back?

Babaji Maharaj:   When somebody slaps, you take it graciously, “It’s the Divine’s work,” or, if you can slap back, slap back, so that that person doesn’t dare to give you a second slap.  In this world, that is also necessary.  You have to be strong.  And on your own, don’t try to slap unnecessarily.  You know, even in the court of justice, these things work – whether you are defending yourself, whether you are offensive.  So, that’s how the justice matters.  Whether it was a planned thing deliberately, you are habitual to slapping people using your arrogance or your power, if you are strong, if you are wealthy, if you are powerful, all these things, they are all wrong things.  If somebody is trying to trouble you, then you defend yourself.  That is a clear case of defense.  That’s what it is.  So, like that you have to proceed in this world.  It’s not easy though, but you simply don’t become habitual to slap people.  But if somebody slaps, you don’t allow them to slap you.  At least shout at them, don’t allow them to come near.  “If you try to slap me, I will call the police, I will give you back.”  Threaten them so that they stay themselves away.  Otherwise, the world will not allow you to live peacefully.  Everybody will sit on your head. 

Question:   Does good karma also come back to you?

Babaji Maharaj:   Karma is afterwards.  We are just trying to see what we have to learn in this world.  Karma can be washed if you cleanse your mind through spiritual sadhanas.  Keep this formula all of you.  If you do meditation, if you are a real devotee, all karmas can be washed away, unhappiness will be washed away.  This is one thing.  But when you are living in this world, you must remember, you are the tongue living in the midst of thirty-two wicked teeth.  If you try to be noble, they will cut you into pieces.  You have to be clever also.  This world, apart from being noble, you need to be clever also, careful – that is also important.  Noble doesn’t mean that you have to be an idiot.  This is the formula you all have to understand in this world.  Otherwise, they won’t leave anybody to live peacefully.  We all have to be careful, defend ourselves.  Silently prepare yourself that nobody troubles you.  Be careful, don’t get involved unnecessarily.  So, this is important for everybody. 

Karma comes afterwards.  Karma is different, this is different.  Otherwise, one is likely to get confused with the karma theories, discussing, discussing, discussing – that is different.  You will understand.  Two formulas understand.  Karma theory – on your own habitually do not become a bad guy.  Means do not be habitually rude to others in the name of frankness or straightforwardness.  We have seen in the society many people, they claim, “I am straight-forward,” but they are rude to others.  If somebody tries to be rude to them, they cannot take it, they will become arrogant, “How dare you try to be like this?”  I have seen practically.  So, where the karma comes in this? That person is wrong because he is habitually rude to others all the time.  It is wrong.  We should try not to hurt others as much as possible.  Yet, sometimes we may have to tell politely, but we can say no with a smile.  We can explain politely.  We can tell kindly, “Please. Please understand.”  So, in spite of that they do not understand, then we will have to take a mace or a sword. 

So, these things are complicated.  Slowly, you will have to understand if you meditate, you will become more mature.  You will understand our first duty to protect this woman from getting disrobed.  Other dharmas come afterwards.  That’s what many people have failed in these things.  If Indians had understood Bhagavad Gita thoroughly, no foreign cultural invasions would not have happened at all.  That’s what Krishna tried to teach, Chanakya tried to teach.  This is important.  So, this is a complicated thing.  Just by listening to me if you try to put into practice, you might do wrong things.  Be careful. 

Question:   Why do you still have to undergo karma if the mind has been purified?

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, simple facts, practical things you all think.  This body has come to you now – Ryan.  This will undergo karma, means the body itself is like that.  Because it is born, it means whatever you would have visualized in the previous life that is going on.  So, when things are happening, don’t lose heart, don’t lose hope.  Take it as a challenge.  Try to overcome that effect by practicing spiritual sadhanas which can enhance your mental energy, gives you enormous inner strength.  This is the philosophy you have to learn.  Instead of simply going into the karma theories, “Why the karma is coming, why the karma is coming?”  Let it be.  It has come.  What to do?  

We went for peace fifty years ago, but we had to see conflicts in the Ashram because Swamiji’s own devotees were like that and fighting for each other for the property.  So, I had to get trapped.  Though I was innocent, I had nothing to do, but two big guns were fighting.  They were trying to make me sandwiched in between.  But yet, it’s okay, no problem.  If this was the prarabdha of this Ashram, let it happen.  I don’t have to take too much of worries into this (pointing to His head).  Now I have to work skillfully that I defend myself, don’t get trapped unnecessarily into this unhappiness.  So, I planned.  “Let me have an Ashram where no interference by other elements will be there, where I can sit peacefully with devotees who are sincere spiritual seekers.  To them I can teach peacefully – nobody who will ask me to get out from here, no trustees, no such thing because this is our Ashram.  We have established a trust.”  So, like this, measures I have to take by using some wisdom.  Experience teaches you the wisdom. 

Like this, we have to try to overcome such effects of karma.  Some karma would have had been there, but sitting depressed was of no use.  But instead of that, I planned like that and we have established and my devotees who admired, who loved, all of you have helped me.  So, today we have a place.  So, I have maintained that [Dehradun Ashram] also, established peace; devotees are able to come and sit peacefully.  I’m talking of practicalities.  When such a thing happened I was helpless, didn’t know what to do.  All elders had done mistakes.  Because of that, my prarabdha also was involved, though there was no mistake of mine.  Maybe previous life there was some prarabdha we had to be.  But instead of carrying on with that prarabdha, I worked out, planned, used some wisdom, “So, let me plan and defend like this.  If necessary, I should be able to come here.  If they don’t allow me to stay there peacefully, then I should be able to come and stay.  Still, I can continue my mission.  I can remember my Guru Shivabalayogi here also.  He is not only at one place.”  Such things I could think because of the meditation, and planned. 

That’s how you all think and plan to overcome the present situation.  So, instead of going into too much theoretical of this karma, this could be confusing.  Karma, karma; clearly it won’t come to the mind for you.  When it has happened, it’s over.  We cannot go back to my last birth and rectify that one in time.  Many times in movies, you get to see this thing, time travelers.  That is all imaginations.  But in this dimension, you cannot go back to the time into your previous life and set right everything and come back to Ryan again.  It’s not possible.  Whatever is done, it is done.  The present is the truth.  But there is a future that you can try.  Tomorrow, you can make yourself secure by being more positive, thinking wisely, adopting such methods.  That’s what I would like to teach, and my opinion. 

Question:   Why is it that everywhere Swamiji established Ashrams there has been some conflict over those properties?

Babaji Maharaj:   What happens; when we deal with the situation, for a while it might be unpleasant, but we need to be polite and be firm, so that after we go away from the world, the future generation should not be troubled for any reason.  For educational purpose only I will explain.  Fifty years ago I had an adopted sister in Mysore.  She loved me and considered me like a God, everything.  Okay, I went to Ashram.  For long years, I was not in touch with her.  She became an officer in the government.  She earned very well.  Suddenly she appeared after more than twenty, twenty-five years.  One day she appeared.  She started coming here.  She was very happy with the Ashram, “This is a luxury, this is such a beautiful thing.”  Then slowly she expressed that she was trying to find a piece of land somewhere around.  She could not find anywhere.  She wanted to settle in the Ashram.  She said, “I want to build a small cottage here and stay here.” 

I said “Look, after a long time we are meeting each other.  I don’t know what type of life you spent.  Being a government officer, you would have had twenty subordinates under you.  Now you are retired.  When you settle down here, the situation could be different.  And now if at all you want to build a small cottage and you have to stay, I would like to make certain conditions.  We need to work out a document that the construction should be from the Trust side so that no single person claims that as his or her property.  And I can guarantee as the chairman, as long as you are alive, you will stay there and nobody will disturb you.  You will be allowed to stay.  Everybody has to respect.  Even if I go away from the world, you are going to be alive, anybody who comes as my successor, as a trustee, they have to respect this fact – that we can work out in a document.  In the same way after you also, when you pass away from this world, no friend or relative of yours must come and claim “This is my property.  Because my relative was staying here, I am the successor.  I have the right to stay here and we have the right to own.”  That must not happen. 

This is what happened in my Guru’s Ashram because these documents were not worked out by those elders.  And now we had to suffer because of that one.  All those elders have gone.  They are not here anymore.  But we are alive.  As long as I am alive, I have to face.  I am the infantry there, I cannot escape.  Whatever troubles happen.  Now everybody is ready to grasp that property.  They are waiting when Babaji dies and “This will be mine, this will be mine.”  There is such a situation there.  Like Doris said once, remember, “Lions are hovering around Babaji, just waiting for the opportunity.”  So, all the time we have to live carefully, prepare such things.  So, this is the karma education we have to understand.  So, if I work out today.  Finally, what happened, she refused to accept that condition.  She accused me and left the Ashram and went away.  She was trying to tell others also “Babaji has become very greedy.  He did not agree that after me that my family people can come, somebody can come.  You also don’t go to Ashram.” It’s up to you.  You accuse me.  You go.  At least I have worked out a peace.  Tomorrow when I go away from this world, the next generation will not be troubled.  The entire thing belongs to the Trust.  It is for the public utility.  Anybody can come and stay.  Nobody can claim this as “My property,” not even my relatives, not me or anybody.  But anybody can come and stay as a devotee. 

So, this is what we have to work out using wisdom.  We have to learn from the mistakes of the elderly people.  That is what Mahabharata teaches, Ramayana teaches.  If we look from the angle of ordinary human beings, forget about Divine incarnations, this story, that story, that is said, this is said; people have been very clever to defend the wrongdoings, they have told lot of stories.  But that really does not work if you scientifically, practically try to see.  A mistake was a mistake.  Because of that a war happened.  So, for us to avoid any such war and conflicting thing, we must not commit such mistakes.  We have to be very careful in future.  That is what we have to learn with Ramayana or Mahabharata also.  In Mahabharata, if all the elders, Bhishma, Dronacharya did not keep quiet when Draupadi was about to be disrobed, then the war wouldn’t have happened.  Bhishma would have protected the Kuru clan, Dhritarastra clan, Pandava clan.  Everybody would have been protected.  Nobody did have to die at all.  But when war happens, you all have read, when two people fight, you have to dig two graves. 

This is what is the karmas, the worldly things that happen.  We have to learn and be careful.  As she is telling, everywhere there is conflict.  Documentation was not worked out.  Things were taken granted, verbally trusted.  That person to whom Swamiji gave in Dehradun, he was a dear disciple of Swamiji.  But after Swamiji passing away, he became selfish.  He looked after his own comfort, never bothered about the larger cause of the Swamiji’s institute that other public has to come.  He belonged to military.  He allowed only military people to come.  He didn’t like the civilians.  He had that type of attitude, what to do?  He couldn’t change himself after forty years of meditation.  This is the education we have to learn.  I am not accusing that person, not against.  For education only, this topic came up, karmas theory came up.  There is so much to learn in this world; it is there. 

So, for all this finally, meditate, purify your mind – you will become wise.  You will be able to understand what is right, what is wrong, what is the priority, what is the karma, now what has to happen next.  Sitting, holding the head about what has happened has no meaning.  Now we have to use our wisdom, what has to happen next.  That is all in our hand.  That’s all Krishna teaches – karmanye vaadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana,  “You have a right to put in effort.  You don’t have a right for the results.”  Yesterday, whatever happened, it’s done.  Let go the past.  Don’t keep worrying, don’t feel guilty.  Many people are disturbed in the world.  They come to me when we travel to foreign countries, India, and the mails, emails that every day I receive, this is one of the main topics – either their childhood is troubled or in the youth, they were troubled, somebody worked in justice to them.  It has happened to all of us, but I cannot afford to sit feeling sorry for myself.  I have so much to work, to teach people, to educate people, to create.  I have to see it tomorrow.  That’s what I am trying to do. 

So, that’s what we all have to learn.  If you meditate, purify your mind, you will be wise, automatically you will do.  That’s why I advised Ryan, “Get up, buy the ticket and come here, you will be alright.”  He was hesitating, “Don’t know how I will be, how I can do that one, whether I will be alright or not.”  First time he was coming to India, he was hesitating what will happen.  First time when we came to America also, we didn’t know anybody.  We didn’t know Clifford or we didn’t know anyone.  But, two uneducated kids, that’s what the embassy told, right? In the passport.  How the America is going to be, how the immigration will work, how the passports will work, how the security will work, we didn’t know.  But as we went, slowly we learned; we learned how to do things.  Like that you all come.  Devaraya Samudram is very approachable, easy.  Everything is beautiful.  We will help in every way.  Then once you practice meditation, don’t worry.  Then you will be wise in the world also, in the karma theories also.  You will be purified.  Let go of the past.  Look for the future.  Still there is time before death happens to you that you can clear your mind and realize the Self; it is possible!  Think positively.

End of Session